Some confusion about Improved Grab.

[Felix]

Beware: Parsing

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

Wippit Guud
If that's the way it goes, Improved grapple is sick. If someone tries to break free, and fails, he takes damage for it.

Although you could argue the importance of the word "successive". You might say that this word implies that damage through grapple checks may only be inflicted once per round, on one particular initiative. Because the fighter and the ankheg both go in one round, the damage is done during one or the other.

Of course, because the ankheg automatically deals damage on its turn when it makes a grapple check to hold, the damage must be done on the ankheg's, and never the fighter's, turn.

[/Parsing]

How does that logic fit you?

 

[Wippit Guud]

This isn't logic... this is rules

It specifically states each successful grapple check. If they fighter tries to break free, he makes a grapple check, if he fails, he takes damage, as the ankheg just mae a successful grapple check. But the Ankheg still gets to act on his turn, right? So it deals it's damage again.

Besides, it makes improved grab all the more sicker.

 

[reapersaurus]

Doing damage each grapple check (not during your turn) is silly.

It's obvious the rules don't support that literal wording - come on, guys.

 

[Wippit Guud]

What WotC does and doesn't imply as obvious has been the basis for many a debate lo these past 3 years Hell, it's the whole reason for this forum.

 

[Waldo]

A bit of info from the main D&D FAQ. This was added recently, but before 3.5 naturally.

When it’s not the defender’s turn, the defender can’t do
anything to affect the attacker or to escape from the grapple,
although the defender probably will make some opposed
grapple checks to resolve the attacker’s grappling actions.

This could be interpreted in such a way as to disallow the aggressor from being hurt when he rolls grapple checks.

Not to mention that you could interpret the defender's roll as setting a DC, and the attacker is making the check. The defender neither "succeeds" nor "fails", only the attacker does.

But I could see how the literal text could make you believe this. My group went through this debate years ago, and I decided it wasn't meant to be interpreted that way. The beasties are nasty enough as is.

 

[Tellerve]

I agree, I'm not going to penalize players who attempt to get out with a grapple check by having the monster once again chew on them. I'm not going to do it, woohoo, made a decision

Tellerve

 

[Menno]

Wippit Guud, I think you're wrong on this subject. You conveniently left out the preceding sentence.

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

So, if I read this right, it goes like this.

Ankheg turn:
1. Ankheg hits, initiates grapple.
2. Opposed strength check, opponent fails, is put in hold.
Opponent turn:
1. Opponent tries to break free. Opposed strength, opponent loses.
2. each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage - opponent takes bite damage on opponent round
Ankheg turn:
1. Opposed grapple, ankheg wins, inflicts damage

The preceding sentence is:

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack.

 

[Wippit Guud]

You're not reading that sentence right, you're overlooking a word in there:

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack.

it deals it's damage, but that's it. If you check the constrict text:

. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

So, without constrict - weapon damage
With constrict - weapon damage and constrict damage

 

[Menno]

You're right. My bad.
I stand corrected.

 

[Tellerve]

Although I really don't like the idea, it is just nasty, I was trying to do the unthinkable and relate the rules to real life. For instance say with a large boa or python and say something else with a big maw and lotsa sharp teeth. I was imagining what would happen if I tried to get out and then fail to do so. I know that for constrictor snakes, if you move, and exhale any air and whatnot you basically just continue to get squeezed more and more. With something that has you in its mouth i could see the teeth getting reset in your body and twisting as you push against it trying to get out.

Both of which I can therefore see getting damaged on a successful grapple check. I'm not fond of it 'cause it just seems like an obscene amount of damage, but *shrugs*. Makes escape artist a lot more attractive. That and Freedom of Movement spell.

Tellerve