Some questions on stealth, invisibility (again) and TL

[hyphz]

I get the feeling this is a bit of an old saw here, but I wonder what the consensus is on this (I would ask Wizards but their website is falsely claiming that I have cookies disabled)

General:

- Can an invisible enemy flank a target? (Nothing in the rules blocks this but this would mean that a creature could suffer a Sneak Attack and as a result learn about an invisible enemy opposite them)

- Does knowing which square an invisible creature is in (by beating its Stealth check with a 10-point margin), make you immune from suffering CA or Sneak Attack from it?

- If a fighter uses Reaping Strike and correctly guesses the square in which an invisible creature is, do they still deal damage on a miss, thus making this power a way of establishing with certainty if a creature is in a particular square or not?

- If an creature is marked by a Fighter and turns invisible while adjacent to the Fighter, does it still suffer an attack (albeit at -5) via the combat challenge ability if it tries to Shift away?

- What happens if an enemy moves into the same square as an invisible creature?

- How deep can the AoO stack go? This has happened before: Rogue shoots someone, adjacent enemy tries to AoO them, Ranger uses Disruptive Strike on the AoO, enemy adjacent to the Ranger tries to AoO him too. I presume that the Disruptive Strike is considered expended before the AoO to prevent an infinite loop..

- To what extent is it necessary to triangulate lines of sight in 3D?

TL:

- Duergar Scouts "become invisible if they take a standard action". Before or after taking the standard action?

- When a monster grows larger, enemies blocking its growth are pushed. What happens if one of them is a dwarf or if there is no space for them to be push into?

- If a bronze warder enters an enemy's square, fully intending to move beyond that square before completing its move, but is somehow stopped before it can complete that later move, where does it end its move?

- Dwarves can't be pushed by Rampage, right?

 

[Ganadai]

- Can an invisible enemy flank a target? (Nothing in the rules blocks this but this would mean that a creature could suffer a Sneak Attack and as a result learn about an invisible enemy opposite them)

Yes.

- Does knowing which square an invisible creature is in (by beating its Stealth check with a 10-point margin), make you immune from suffering CA or Sneak Attack from it?

No.

- If a fighter uses Reaping Strike and correctly guesses the square in which an invisible creature is, do they still deal damage on a miss, thus making this power a way of establishing with certainty if a creature is in a particular square or not?

Yes.

- What happens if an enemy moves into the same square as an invisible creature?

Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. You can end your movement in an enemy’s square only if the enemy is helpless.

Despite the rules, I would say that if an invisible enemy chose to not take an OA, he could allow the PC to move through his space. If the PC ended their turn in the enemies space I would allow the enemy to shift 1 square.

- How deep can the AoO stack go? This has happened before: Rogue shoots someone, adjacent enemy tries to AoO them, Ranger uses Disruptive Strike on the AoO, enemy adjacent to the Ranger tries to AoO him too. I presume that the Disruptive Strike is considered expended before the AoO to prevent an infinite loop..

Pg. 268: You can take no more than one opportunity action on each other
combatant’s turn. You can’t take an opportunity action on your own turn.

So it can get as deep as there are creatures in the encounter, but since each creature is limited to one OA you will never have an infinite loop.

Yes, the Disruptive Strike is considered expended.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Pg. 268: You can take no more than one opportunity action on each other combatant’s turn. You can’t take an opportunity action on your own turn.

So it can get as deep as there are creatures in the encounter, but since each creature is limited to one OA you will never have an infinite loop.

What he means: an immediate interrupt happens before the action it is interrupting. An opportunity action happens before the action it is interrupting.

In the example, the Ranger is using an Encounter power (which he can use once per encounter) as an immediate action (which he can use once per round). Once he has used Disruptive Strike, he can no longer take an immediate action this round, and he can no longer use Disruptive Strike this encounter.

But he provokes an OA (since he's making a ranged attack), and the adjacent enemy makes an attack as an opportunity action. The enemy can only make a single opportunity attack this turn; once he has taken this OA, he can no longer make an OA this turn.

However, because the enemy's OA occurs before the Disruptive Strike, the Ranger has not yet used Disruptive Strike this encounter, nor has he used an immediate action this round. So can he, conceivably, use Disruptive Strike against the OA? If he can, and does, then the OA will take a penalty, and resolve, and after that the Ranger's original Disruptive Strike would resolve... except he's already used the encounter power (and an immediate action), so the original Disruptive Strike cannot proceed.

But! If he does, in fact, use Disruptive Strike against the OA, the ranged attack provokes an OA. And since this Disruptive Strike occurs before the OA that triggered it, the enemy has not, in fact, made an OA yet this turn. So he still has his OA 'in hand', so to speak, and can take the OA provoked by the Disruptive Strike.

Which is an attack against the Ranger, who despite having two Disruptive Strikes 'in the stack', has not yet actually made a Disruptive Strike, so he interrupts the OA with Disruptive Strike, provoking an OA...

There's your infinite loop. So hyphz's question was "I presume the Disruptive Strike is considered expended..." - as in, at the point the Ranger declares his Disruptive Strike, he is considered to have used the power, even though it has not resolved yet, and even though the interrupting OA resolves before Disruptive Strike does.

-Hyp.

 

[Kordeth]

There's your infinite loop. So hyphz's question was "I presume the Disruptive Strike is considered expended..." - as in, at the point the Ranger declares his Disruptive Strike, he is considered to have used the power, even though it has not resolved yet, and even though the interrupting OA resolves before Disruptive Strike does.

-Hyp.

This. There are no backsies in 4E--the only way an interrupt invalidates the action it's interrupting is by making that action impossible. Once you've declared the Disruptive Strike, you're committed.

Remember, though the target of the Disruptive Strike can't be the one taking the OA, because you can't take an OA on your turn.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Remember, though the target of the Disruptive Strike can't be the one taking the OA, because you can't take an OA on your turn.

In his example, there are two enemies - the enemy adjacent to the rogue (A), and the enemy adjacent to the ranger (B).

It's the rogue's turn. A is making an OA on the rogue. The ranger is using Disruptive Strike on A. B is making an OA on the ranger.

-Hyp.

 

[Kordeth]

In his example, there are two enemies - the enemy adjacent to the rogue (A), and the enemy adjacent to the ranger (B).

It's the rogue's turn. A is making an OA on the rogue. The ranger is using Disruptive Strike on A. B is making an OA on the ranger.

-Hyp.

I know, I'm just pointing out that there has to be that second adjacent enemy for the issue to come up.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I know, I'm just pointing out that there has to be that second adjacent enemy for the issue to come up.

Not necessarily. Let's posit the ranger, his ally, and an enemy fighter, all adjacent to each other. The ally is marked by the fighter.

On the ally's turn, he shifts. The fighter makes an attack as an immediate interrupt via Combat Superiority; the ranger shoots as the fighter as an immediate interrupt using Disruptive Strike; the fighter makes an OA on the ranger since he made a ranged attack in an adjacent square.

One enemy, and the creature making the OA is the target of Disruptive Strike

-Hyp.

 

[hyphz]

Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. You can end your movement in an enemy’s square only if the enemy is helpless.

The problem here is that normally you couldn't move into an enemy's square at all.

This creates insanities; such as, if two enemy guards are blocking a bridge, just hit one of them with a power that turns them invisible and walk on through - suffering only a couple AOs.

 

[clearstream]

Duergar Scouts "become invisible if they take a standard action". Before or after taking the standard action?

My present understanding of wording in 4th is that 'if' generally means at the end of the action, while 'when' generally means at the start of the action.

'If' looks for the action to have happened. 'When' looks for the action to have started.

-vk