Some questions on the Hide skill (world's dumbest rule question?)

[mikebr99]

P 101 - 2, Complete Adventurer...

Hide
Move between cover
"You can use this option to sneak up on someone from a hiding place... if your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn't notice you unitl you attack or make some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you."

[edit]

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.
A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Mike

 

[Whimsical]

...But where are the rules for that in the PH 3.5e?

I doesn't. Make a House Clarafication for your game on how you will rule this situation.

 

[MarkB]

I get that CustServe said such a thing.

...But where are the rules for that in the PH 3.5e?

Not explicitly stated, it would appear. Not under the Hide skill description, the Dexterity description, or the Sneak Attack description, nor in the Combat section under Armour Class, Combat Modifiers, Cover or Concealment.

Even the Uncanny Dodge class feature is silent as to whether the subject retains its Dex bonus when struck by a hidden but non-invisible attacker.

 

[Henrix]

I get that CustServe said such a thing.

...But where are the rules for that in the PH 3.5e?

The best I can find is the catch-all about Dex bonus to AC:

Sometimes you can't use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC. (If you don't have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.) You lose your Dexterity bonus when, for example, an invisible opponent attacks you, you're hanging on to the face of a crumbling cliff high above a river of lave, or you're caught flat-footed at the beginning of combat.

And I think we all agree that the intention is that you cannot react to an attack from a hidden enemy, but it doesn't seem to be spelled out explicitly anywhere.

 

[Nail]

Not explicitly stated, it would appear.

Exactly.

Not even hinted at, which is surprising, given this is the second version of the 3e rules.

@mikebr99: That's a version (and an extension) of the sniping rules, which isn't quite the same thing. I'm asking: "Where does it say what happens when a hidden subject attacks an opponent when it's not the first round of combat?"

 

[Arravis]

So, what's the general consensus on this then? Is a un-spotted/hidden character is under the invisible condition (along with the +2, etc) or are the creatures that fail the spot check merely flat-footed?

Still can't freaking believe they haven't officially clarified this issue in the rules or in the FAQ.

 

[buzz]

The official word from WotC is that creatures who fail the Spot are denied their Dex bonus.* The hiding characer is not considered invisible in the D&D sense.

* I.e., flat-footed, though the term usually refers only to the kind of Dex loss that happens at the beginning of combat.

 

[mikebr99]

So, what's the general consensus on this then? Is a un-spotted/hidden character is under the invisible condition (along with the +2, etc) or are the creatures that fail the spot check merely flat-footed?

Still can't freaking believe they haven't officially clarified this issue in the rules or in the FAQ.

IMO... you are flat-footed WRT the hidden guy if he makes his hide check opposed to your sopt check. And this flat-footed condition can happen at any point in a typical combat, not just at the beginning.

Sniping mechanic allows SA and you never become visible to your target. One attack only!

Move from cover and stab allows SA and you will become visible. One attack only!

[edit] Balancing at any point in a combat may invoke the flat-footed condition as well... so there is precedence for it happening outside of the 1st round... YMMV

Mike

 

[Arravis]

So, how would you guys handle the "around the corner" issue? If a rogue is hidden around a corner and readies an action to attack when the guard comes around the corner, does the rogue get a sneak attack? The moment the guard rounds the corner, the rogue no longer has cover and is spotted... but does the readied action go before the guard sees the rogue? In real life the situation is exactly the kind of event that someone would be able to "sneak attack" in, but the rules don't seem to allow for it

Crappy illustration to try to make the situation clear (R=Rogue, G=Guard):

R/\G

 

[buzz]

[edit] Balancing at any point in a combat may invoke the flat-footed condition as well... so there is precedence for it happening outside of the 1st round... YMMV

Yep, that's why I used the word "usually." It seems like WotC wants to reserve the phrase for pre-combat, but they use it elsewhere, despite otherwise being anal about saying "denied Dex bonus to AC." Wacky.