Some questions on the Hide skill (world's dumbest rule question?)

[Arravis]

What would most people rule on the examples given? Can a player hide on the shadowy side of a building? Can he hide in a shadowy alley? Can he hide in a shadowy hole in the ground?

 

[MarkB]

I AM the DM, and I'm looking for clearer definitions of all of this. I don't know, if by the rules as written, "shadowy illumination" is even possible in daylight. Can a player hide on the shadowy side of a building? Can he hide in a shadowy alley? Can he hide in a shadowy hole in the ground?

A clearer definition of these kind of circumstances would be nice. Earlier editions of D&D were'nt really attempting to make meta-game mechanics which spanned as a single cohesive unit. These are the kind of rules that need clarity (pun intended again) if you're going to have this kind of system.

The trouble is that, in the real world, it's all very much relative. Our eyes adjust to prevailing light conditions to give us a relatively constant view of the world.

To take your example, if you were to measure the absolute amount of light falling upon the area in the shadowed side of a building lit by bright sunlight, you'd likely find that it was more brightly lit than an office lit by a standard ceiling light fixture. But to someone standing outside that area, whose eyes are adjusted to direct sunlight, it might appear as dark as a starlit alleyway, and a person attempting to hide there might escape their notice completely, even though in other circumstances the same absolute illumination level would clearly reveal him.

The only way ther rules could approach simulating such variables is with about half a page's worth of detailed circumstance modifiers, and even then actually adjudicating those rules would frequently lead you into controversy and dispute. So the rules take the alternate path of leaving it up to the DM's discretion.

 

[Nail]

Can a player hide on the shadowy side of a building?

Probably. I'd concider some circumstantial penalties (-4 to -6).

Can he hide in a shadowy alley?

Yes. Again, I'd consider whether a circumstantial penalty is in order. (-2 to -4)

Can he hide in a shadowy hole in the ground?

Probably. Depends on what the hole is made in.

....for all of these, I'd consider ruling that if the spoter is also in the shadowy area, then there is no concealment. All of this is assuming it's as you describe: outdoors, with sun.

 

[Stalker0]

Probably. I'd concider some circumstantial penalties (-4 to -6).


Yes. Again, I'd consider whether a circumstantial penalty is in order. (-2 to -4)

Probably. Depends on what the hole is made in.

....for all of these, I'd consider ruling that if the spoter is also in the shadowy area, then there is no concealment. All of this is assuming it's as you describe: outdoors, with sun.

Why a penalty? Hide requires concealment, but if you have it, there's no rule about how good the concealment is imo. Obviously if its so dark you cannot see, then there's no need for hide, you are just invisible to the onlooker. But if they can see, then there ability to find you is based on their spot skill, I see no reason to complicate it with further circumstance bonus or penalties.

 

[buzz]

Stalker0, you beat me to it.

Adding Hide penalties gets into the realm of degrees of shadowy illumination, and upsetting the balance between the concealment miss chance and the ability to use Hide. I mean, I can understand the logic, but I think I'd just leave it alone.

 

[Greyman]

I AM the DM, and I'm looking for clearer definitions of all of this. I don't know, if by the rules as written, "shadowy illumination" is even possible in daylight. Can a player hide on the shadowy side of a building? Can he hide in a shadowy alley? Can he hide in a shadowy hole in the ground?

A clearer definition of these kind of circumstances would be nice. Earlier editions of D&D were'nt really attempting to make meta-game mechanics which spanned as a single cohesive unit. These are the kind of rules that need clarity (pun intended again) if you're going to have this kind of system.

Look in the DMG; shadowy alleys can be found when designing Urban Adventures.

City Lights
If a city has main thoroughfares, they are lined with lanterns hanging at a height of 7 feet from building awnings. These lanterns are spaced 60 feet apart, so their illumination is all but continuous. Secondary streets and alleys are not lit; it is common for citizens to hire lantern-bearers when going out after dark.

Alleys can be dark places even in daylight, thanks to the shadows of the tall buildings that surround them. A dark alley in daylight is rarely dark enough to afford true concealment, but it can lend a +2 circumstance bonus on Hide checks.

IE: you cannot just hide in the darkness of an alley, so it's not truly "shadowy illumination", but it helps you to hide behind something that's in the shadows.

Shadowy Illumination is what you get, for example, when you cast the darkness spell, oddly enough. It's the darkness of a moonlight night, not meerly twilight. It's not just the shadow cast under a tree or by a rock, but a thick forest canopy might manage it.

It's anywhere you can see just well enough to stumble around the furniture without tripping over too often, but where can easily miss little details like, say, that crazed psycopath stalker crouched right next to you (until he sneak attacks).

 

[Greyman]

Oh, sneaky!

P 101 - 2, Complete Adventurer...

Hide
Move between cover
"You can use this option to sneak up on someone from a hiding place... if your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn't notice you unitl you attack or make some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you."

Yep, that's why I used the word "usually." It seems like WotC wants to reserve the phrase for pre-combat, but they use it elsewhere, despite otherwise being anal about saying "denied Dex bonus to AC." Wacky.

Being flat-footed does more than deny dexterity bonuses. It also denies the ability to make an Attack of Opportunity. This is very useful to keep in mind when planning hide, sneak attack, and run away maneouvers. The Complete Adventurer rulling let's a skirmishing rogue get away from a failed hit without drawing AoO!

 

[zlorf]

Hide Skills

What would most people rule on the examples given? Can a player hide on the shadowy side of a building? Can he hide in a shadowy alley? Can he hide in a shadowy hole in the ground?

In Shackled City Hard Cover a tactic they use is for an Assassin is to use his slipper of spider climb and climb above the doorway near the ceiling and study someone for 3 round and leap on them.

Condition of the room: Dark
Assassin hears someone approaching the door and hides near the ceiling: Hide roll = 30
Dwarf opens the door and enter the room, dwarf has darkvision so has no problems
seeing. DM rolls a spot check for the Dwarf..Spot roll = 24.

Now in theory the dwarf should be able to see anyone in the room unless they are behind
an object. As a DM you could say the ceiling is uneven, say it has beams so at least you can
hide properly.

To me a hide check vs spot should be enough. the dwarf just doesnt notice the dark figure near the ceiling as he looks around the room.

If someone hides say behind a pillar and somewalks past the pillar they get a spot check, if they fail, they just dont notice the hidden creature, even though now they probably have a clear line of sight. Otherwise hide becomes very weak and you have people saying i enter the room and have a really good look behind every object etc, ah there he is behind the chair.

So i guess i would lean toward hide = invis

Cheers
Z

 

[buzz]

Being flat-footed does more than deny dexterity bonuses. It also denies the ability to make an Attack of Opportunity. This is very useful to keep in mind when planning hide, sneak attack, and run away maneouvers.

Yes! That's the distinction I was trying to remember between the two. Thanks, Greyman.

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

I have defintely treated this as a house rule situation - i.e., it doesn't explicitly state anywhere in the 3.0 Core Rules that the Hide skill can be used to Sneak Attack, but it's just common sense. As for which situations it can be used in, I tend to wing it. If the rogue can pull off a quick Hide check in a surprise round (given a place to hide, of course), they're good to go with a SA on their next round. I haven't actually had to rule on sneaking up from a hiding place to make a melee SA, so far the rogues in the parties I've run all like to snipe from hiding. I've usually limited to the one shot, unless they can get to another hiding spot, but I'll have to work that -20 sniping rule in.