Some random (and potentially pointless) musings on system simplicity and complexity

[jasper]

I agree with bret more consistent same complex.
In 1st edition you had different spell casters casting same name spells but with different ranges, etc
Also the information was widely scatter over the books. Look up death and dying from the DMG. It talks about a RS check in places, then SYSTEM SHOCK SURVIVAL in others etc. Saves are one chart but a page later it tells the DM to wing it if the monster is big(giant) or fatty (were boar) so you could give bonuses to save to pc if they were as fat as Rosanne Barr.

And as other have pt out simple mechanics then add more options. How different would D&D be if you drop AOO and the feats which affect them.

Could the rules be written better.No I not talking about Haste 3.0 bs 3.5 but more like how in PHB the evasion says one thing but in the DMG the second bullet on Evasion shows the exception to when you can use evasion.

 

[Umbran]

Is 3E (or 3.5E, which is basically the same animal) a simpler system than 1st or 2nd edition?

I'll vote yes, 3E is simpler. I'll expand that to say that it is simpler, yet more elaborate. And I'll use mathematics as an analogy - 3E is akin to a fractal. The Mandelbrot set, for example.

A fractal image seems very complicated, until you look very closely, and realist that it is basically composed of the same image repeated over and over with only slight variation (in mathematics, this is called "self-similarity"). All the combat manuvers are bascially repetitions of the same task-resolution mechanics, many different abilities are handled with teh same feat-acquisition mechanic. Rise in many different forms of power are handled with the same "class levelling" mechanic, and so on.

Sure, one could just say “Well, they didn’t think of it until 3E.” And to an extent, I’m sure that’s true. But why?

Creativity does not follow logic, or a schedule. While some ideas have necessary precursors (you cannot have a "feat chain" before you have "feats"), in general ideas come when they come. The fact that it "makes sense" in retrospect does not at all measure how likely it was that somebody in a position to implement it would come up with the idea.

 

[kenjib]

Feats and prestige classes added another layer of complexity to 3e, especially at the design level. One example - feat X and prestige class Y might work fine in book X and book Y, seperately, but together they might have a synergistic effect that hurts the game. Because of the glut of material from d20, the DM is more likely to need to micromanage everything.

 

[RC Hagy]

I believe at heart d20 is simpler

AoO, Sunder and others can be made a learnable skill instead of just a default... 'ability'.

A feat would be to much... Sunder would be easy... knowledge (tactics) or even craft/profession (weaponsmithing/blacksmithing).

Same with AoO's and counterspells, now basic knowledge something exists you will not know it.

Go by level. Bull Rush, AoO or whatever could be chosen at lvl one then another at lvl three... this should give time to get used to the rules one at a time.

I basically see many things in the 'core rules' as tacked onto a 'more base' rules set anyhow. So for me adding/remove/redefining are not such a chore as in previous editions or other rules systems.

I want to get rid of the Paladins 'cure disease'. I do not like the per week version.
Sack it. Add remove disease to spell list, allow Paladins (and Rangers) orisons.

New orison: Detect Disease (heal skill anyone...).

My brief notes also have a Domain: Cure. Remove Disease 1x a day for granted power and 4 lvls worth of spells (cannot remember if that is all I was going for or if I got distracted). First domain spell is gotten with first full orison (which is surprisingly gotten at 3rd lvl.)
Oh, 'full' orison, means '0' orisons, which means bonus orisons for high abilities. Good balance (I believe) for a low magic campaign where actual spells will be limited, if not spell levels.

Is there a bit of work involved? Yep... but since I can see the 'guts' of the rules (mostly), those rules are the same for most classes, that one can tinker more now with an expectation that nothing will be so broken for you to either: abandon you tinkering or put in more work than is viable for something that does the job well to begin with.


RCH