Song of Ice and Fire question

[ASH]

I just want to thank everyone for reminding me just how much I love these books. I have only read them once about 1-2 years ago, and now, I have decided to start them over again. I just finished the last Harry Potter book and was finding myself in need of something to read. So I will be rereading them. I am sure that I will get more out of them the second time.
My sister-inlaw just picked up the first book and she is going to start it this week. I am looking forward to discussing things from the book with her.

The thing I really respect Martin for is that he is really apoligetic and truely sorry that it takes so long for him to release his books. He also reads exerpts at conventions and book signings and then lets people paraphrase the small exerpts that he reads to get people excited about his books.
UNlike Jordan, who to get people excited about his books SOLD a mini book (the introduction). Talk about selling out!!!!
I wish Martin would kill off about a hundred of Jordans characters, and replace his editor. Then maybe the books would not blow so much. But This is not a Jordan bash. But a place to express my love of the Song of Ice and Fire!!

 

[emergent]

As far as who is good I'd have to go with Jon Snow for one (look what he has sacrificed in order to try to save the wall and all the people who turned their back on him), Tyrion may end up good before it's all said and done, Ned was good, Davos is good and several minor characters have shown good tendancies. Of course Jamie started out as one of the most wicked people in the book and he may end up good by the end of the story. Characters change and grow through the books.

SPOlLERS BELOW
Not that I don't agree; in fact, I do. But it is interesting that even the "most good" of these characters do things that unsettle me a little. Part of me wanted Jon to find some way to stay with Igritte, just as part of me was mad at Jon for breaking his oath, just as part of me knew he did what he had to do. Similarly, with Ned, I never really liked him that much. Sure, he tried to do the right thing, was concerned with duty and honor, and was a good guy, but I never really felt for him that deeply.

It's this moral complexity that makes the series so interesting. Tyrion is the most complex of them all, although Jamie's progression is very interesting. Even if he becomes "a good guy", you can still look at his actions in Book 1 and get angry. Can you ever really (morally) overcome throwing a kid from the roof?

I'll stop my rambling. This is what you get when you cross a philosopher with a fantasy geek.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Even if he becomes "a good guy", you can still look at his actions in Book 1 and get angry. Can you ever really (morally) overcome throwing a kid from the roof? [/B]

That's not the worst thing he's ever done. He's had sex WITH HIS TWIN SISTER! Many, many times. How can you morally overcome THAT!?!?

It's going to take a redemption of Shawshankian proportions before Jamie becomes a paladin, if that's the road down which he has started to journey.

 

[KnowTheToe]

That's not the worst thing he's ever done. He's had sex WITH HIS TWIN SISTER! Many, many times. How can you morally overcome THAT!?!?

It's going to take a redemption of Shawshankian proportions before Jamie becomes a paladin, if that's the road down which he has started to journey.

I think Jamie is going to have a long and painful road ahead of him and he will be the right hand, no left hand man of King Imp the first.


OK maybe not, but his future is not going to be easy.

 

[KenM]

That's not the worst thing he's ever done. He's had sex WITH HIS TWIN SISTER! Many, many times. How can you morally overcome THAT!?!?

Well, they were both willing. IMO thowing a confused little boy that you can easily overpower from a great height, with the intention to kill Him, Jamie said at least once He thought Bran would die, is worse.

 

[Pants]

Just because I'm an anal, nitpicking, jerk...

His name is Jaime

 

[Starman]

I think one of the greatest things about this series is how Martin makes the reader so passionate about the characters (love or hate). I don't think I've ever read another story where I had very strong feelings either way about most of the characters. Sure, I like some characters and dislike others in other books, but I love/hate most of the Ice and Fire characters including relatively minor ones. Kudos to Martin for making the characters come alive so well.

Starman

 

[Kahuna Burger]

The books are very well written, but after finishing the first two, I simply did not want to read anymore. I prefer a world where there are clearly defined heroes, who fight the good fight, defeat the dragon, rescue the damsel in distress, and at the end of the day nobly triumph over the villians in black, and then ride off into the sunset. And that goes for fiction of any kind. If I want to read about the Dark Ages, I will pick up a history book.

my feelings exactly. These are stories, for dog's sake, they are rated on whether I enjoy readng them, not as some sort of performance art... After the red wedding, I simply skimmed the rest of the book for the plot threads I felt like seeing the continuation of, but with a completely detached air (which for me means almost zero enjoyment). I won't be reading the next until my bf (who is a big fan and put me onto them) has read it first, given me all major spoilers, and I'll still probably skip around to the chapters with good names at the begining...

I only enjoy stories I can become emotionally invested in. When I am punished for that emotional investment, I don't like it. Some people like that style of writing, great have fun with it. But there's nothing terribly "brave" or creative about being the literary equivelent of a killer DM. "Reality" is what we have the news for. Fantasy doesn't stick to certain heroic conventions because the writers CAN'T write about pointless puppy kicking, it sticks to the conventions because they make good fiction. Good = enjoyable, not "edgy" in case I hadn't made that clear...

gggrrrrrr..... Mad at Martin all over again....

PS, one problem is that rather than making stories feel more realistic, pointless main character deaths actually make me far more aware of it as fiction. There's a certain amount you can do to make the reader 'angry' at the antagonist characters, but when you cross a line, I find that there is no way to look at it but "MARTIN decided to kill off these characters, and F*** up the plot." It breaks the willing suspension of disbelief for me, in addition to making me lose interest in the story.

Kahuna burger

 

[DanMcS]

PS, one problem is that rather than making stories feel more realistic, pointless main character deaths actually make me far more aware of it as fiction. There's a certain amount you can do to make the reader 'angry' at the antagonist characters, but when you cross a line, I find that there is no way to look at it but "MARTIN decided to kill off these characters, and F*** up the plot." It breaks the willing suspension of disbelief for me, in addition to making me lose interest in the story.

So did you chuck the Dragonlance book across the room after the High Clerist Tower?

When good guys always triumph, and nothing really bad ever happens to them, /that/ marks the book completely as "fiction". Bad things happen to people. If anything, this should make it easier to believe the story. Your reasoning doesn't correllate with your response.

 

[DanMcS]

That's not the worst thing he's ever done. He's had sex WITH HIS TWIN SISTER! Many, many times. How can you morally overcome THAT!?!?

Why would he have to morally overcome it? Of his litany of bad deeds, that's so trivial as to fall off the list. It's not like either one of them was nonconsenting.