Song of Ice and Fire question

[Shadowdancer]

Why would he have to morally overcome it? Of his litany of bad deeds, that's so trivial as to fall off the list. It's not like either one of them was nonconsenting.

Incest is now trivial? Please.

Jokes about the residents of certain predominately rural Southern states aside, there is no culture on earth in which the taboo against incest does not remain inviolate. This taboo is supported by religious, societal and biological imperatives.

Even in Martin's fictional world, incest is a strong taboo. That's why Stannis can use the allegation against the Lannisters. That's why Jaime and Cersei work so hard to keep their relationship a secret from everyone. That's even why Jaime was willing to kill Bran -- he knew their crime of incest was at least as morally wrong as murder is, if not more so.

Jaime has to morally overcome it because (according to my Webster's New World Dictionary) moral implies conformity with the generally accepted standards of goodness or rightness in conduct or character, sometimes specifically in sexual conduct. His sexual conduct does not conform to the generally accepted standards of goodness or rightness, in this world or in Martin's.

Now, I'm no prude. I enjoy Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" books very much, and I think they are very well written -- probably the best fantasy series I've ever read. I've also been a defender and supporter of the upcoming Book of Erotic Fantasy since it was first announced, and have already preordered a copy. I've long been a fan of various erotic and fetish stories and publications, many of which have incorrectly been labeled pornography and many of which deal with sexual taboos that violate our social mores.

But even I'm not so blase I cannot recognize that Jaime and Cersei's incest is not only wrong, it is one of the greatest sins and crimes they can commit -- about as far from being trivial as you can get.

 

[Spatula]

Even in Martin's fictional world, incest is a strong taboo. That's why Stannis can use the allegation against the Lannisters. That's why Jaime and Cersei work so hard to keep their relationship a secret from everyone. That's even why Jaime was willing to kill Bran -- he knew their crime of incest was at least as morally wrong as murder is, if not more so

Ah, actually Jaime and Cersei need to hide their relationship because their children's claim to the throne is contingent upon the realm believing that Jaime is not the father (or at least not being confronted with proof to the contrary). And the Targaryens practiced incest and it was not considered taboo or a sin for them.

 

[ssampier]

The Red Wedding was a truly shocking moment for me. I put the book down and I said (to myself), "This SUCKS!" Three days later I pick it up again and I finished reading book three. Wow. George R.R. Martin can write. No other book has held my attention and interest this far; he has turned the fantasy genre on its head.

SPOILERS....


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Now what of Rob's wife, Jeyne? I only read book three once, but I remember they pointing out that she stayed behind several times. Also, there was an interesting conversation between Jeyne and Cat about Rob and she ... practicing... every night. What would be the significance of her having child?

Second, any predictions what Lord Frey's comeuppance will be?!

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

Now what of Rob's wife, Jeyne? I only read book three once, but I remember they pointing out that she stayed behind several times. Also, there was an interesting conversation between Jeyne and Cat about Rob and she ... practicing... every night. What would be the significance of her having child?

Possible Spoilers for those who have not yet read A Storm of Swords...
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Their child would be the heir to Winterfell and the title King in the the North. This would have put Tywin's attempt to have Tyrion rule the north as Sansa's husband and the father of their children to ruin. But of course the events at the end of the book ruined those plans anyway. Robb's child would also be a rallying point for those Northern Lords who will not serve Greyjoys, Lannisters, Boltons, or any other non-Stark.


Concerning the Targaryens and their incest... it seems that the Targaryens were above the law and what was taboo for some was not for them. Incest was looked down upon in Westeros but the Targaryens could do what they wanted to. Wether this was because they were the ruling family or because they were descended from Valyria is not really hinted at though I think it is the latter because brother-sister relations was a "Valyrian custom" and was done "To preserve the blood royal and keep it pure".

 

[DanMcS]

Jokes about the residents of certain predominately rural Southern states aside, there is no culture on earth in which the taboo against incest does not remain inviolate. This taboo is supported by religious, societal and biological imperatives.

Ancient egypt. The pharoahs and their wives were sometimes siblings, to keep the bloodline pure. All of European nobility from the middle ages on is laced with marriages to cousins of varying degree, because there are only so many high nobles to marry and you end up being related to them all after a while. During the War of the Roses, the english royal family tree doesn't branch, it actually condenses as they marry their cousins to get a stronger claim to the throne. Ancient Greek myth has the gods marrying their sisters, a practice the greeks wouldn't have enshrined in myth if it were totally abhorent.

Even in Martin's fictional world, incest is a strong taboo. That's why Stannis can use the allegation against the Lannisters. That's why Jaime and Cersei work so hard to keep their relationship a secret from everyone. That's even why Jaime was willing to kill Bran -- he knew their crime of incest was at least as morally wrong as murder is, if not more so.

No it's not. The targaryens married sibling to sibling because they considered themselves so high above the other nobles- had to keep the bloodline pure. This was common practice for their whole dynasty, what, 400 years or more? I'm fuzzy on the timeline there. Anyway, it's a weak taboo at best, and not the main thrust of the charges against Cersei.

The allegation works against the Lannisters not because the children are born of incest, but because they aren't Robert Baratheon's. Without that, the Lannisters have no legal claim to the throne, and would lose most of their support, and Stannis would be the rightful king.

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

Just as the War of the Roses inspired GRRM for part of ASoIaF and that Robert Baratheon = Edward IV; the Targaryens might have been inspired by the Ptolemies of Egypt. Though AFAIK GRRM has not stated that Ptolemies = Targaryens; he has said that about Robert and Edward York.

 

[Spatula]

ow what of Rob's wife, Jeyne? I only read book three once, but I remember they pointing out that she stayed behind several times.

I believe her & her family are pardoned, it's one of the acts we see the king sign in Jaime's last chapter. Also see the Freys being given Riverrun and the Tully lands, in exchange for wedding.

 

[KenM]

I'm about 100 pages into Storm of Swords. How far in does this Red Wedding I keep hearing about happen? (NO SPOILERS just give me a page estimate please.)

 

[Pants]

I knew Jamie was not right, but could not remember what it was.

Thanks

No problem

 

[Sirius_Black]

I'm about 100 pages into Storm of Swords. How far in does this Red Wedding I keep hearing about happen? (NO SPOILERS just give me a page estimate please.)

I'd say as you near page 700, is when you are about to read about that disturbing event.