Song of Ice and Fire question

[LuYangShih]

Well, again, my point of view on the subject is that if I want realism, or an accurate portrayal of the Dark Ages, I will pick up a history book. I do not see the reason to read a work of fiction because it is "realistic". It is sickening enough reading about the depravity humanity lowered itself to during the actual Dark Ages, and I do not need or desire to read a book where the same behavior is modeled in a fantasy world. I read fiction for fun, and it is not fun to read A Song Of Ice And Fire. I have yet to hear anyone else say it is, either. Sure, I hear people say, It's realistic, it's deep, I enjoyed seeing the world", but yet, no one just says, it was fun. Because it isn't.

 

[Sirius_Black]

I read fiction for fun, and it is not fun to read A Song Of Ice And Fire. I have yet to hear anyone else say it is, either. Sure, I hear people say, It's realistic, it's deep, I enjoyed seeing the world", but yet, no one just says, it was fun. Because it isn't.

Well, here you go then....I think the series is fun. By that I mean, I enjoy reading the series.

Why?

I enjoy Martin's work because of some of the harsh elements within the books. I like the fact that a character I had viewed as (insert word here that the moderators would have a fit over) is now acting, from the preview chapters of "Feast of Crows" I've seen mentioned, with more honor than I ever could have envisioned.

I know my tastes differ from others as evidenced on this thread. However, that's what I love about books. There exists somewhere out there, works they will find fun. For myself, I find this series fun.

 

[WizarDru]

Well, again, my point of view on the subject is that if I want realism, or an accurate portrayal of the Dark Ages, I will pick up a history book. I do not see the reason to read a work of fiction because it is "realistic". It is sickening enough reading about the depravity humanity lowered itself to during the actual Dark Ages, and I do not need or desire to read a book where the same behavior is modeled in a fantasy world. I read fiction for fun, and it is not fun to read A Song Of Ice And Fire. I have yet to hear anyone else say it is, either. Sure, I hear people say, It's realistic, it's deep, I enjoyed seeing the world", but yet, no one just says, it was fun. Because it isn't.

Well, that's something of a subjective statement. My fun isn't your fun. Watching the elder Clegane get his was fun, for me. None of which matters one jot into your enjoyment, of course.

And I'm not trying to tell you that 'realism=good', or that you should like it because of that. Not liking 'Song' is just as valid as liking it. My point is simply that some of claimed one element or another was distracting or incorrect (such as questions of lineage, incest, tolerance of misanthropes within the feudal system, sexual issues), and as often as not, these elements are based on GRRM's reading of history and fictionalizing it.

I enjoy the Belgariad for some things, Song for others, and the Taltos series for others still. Song provides me a different kind of enjoyment than, say, the Riftwar Saga, and a different level of immersion. It will appeal to different folks for different reasons, but it will never be accused of being a 'ripping yarn'. I have Harry Potter for that.

 

[jdavis]

Well, again, my point of view on the subject is that if I want realism, or an accurate portrayal of the Dark Ages, I will pick up a history book. I do not see the reason to read a work of fiction because it is "realistic". It is sickening enough reading about the depravity humanity lowered itself to during the actual Dark Ages, and I do not need or desire to read a book where the same behavior is modeled in a fantasy world. I read fiction for fun, and it is not fun to read A Song Of Ice And Fire. I have yet to hear anyone else say it is, either. Sure, I hear people say, It's realistic, it's deep, I enjoyed seeing the world", but yet, no one just says, it was fun. Because it isn't.

Well it is fun to read for me, I read for entertainment, of course books about the Dark Ages are fun for me to read to because I read for entertainment, reading post is fun for me to read because I read for entertainment, do you assume that all the millions of people out there reading Martin's books are not enjoying them? Yes they might not be happy slapstick kind of fun but they are for entertainment and if it wasn't entertaining then it would not be as popular as it is. As far as realism goes, well I don't remember there being a 200 foot tall giant Ice wall in the Dark ages, I don't remember people being emphatically attached to giant wolves in the dark ages, Dragons? no they are not real, magic....no, giants...no, how about evil elves who steal souls.....no those were not realistic themes from dark age history. If you are talking about royal incest that was a fact in places that have royalty long past the dark ages and into the 17th and 18th century, marrying cousin's to increase your claim to the throne was accepted practice, of course that doesn't make a history book out of Martin's writing, People killing each other.... gee isn't that a big part of all fantasy novels? Most novels have villians who do evil things.

I accept your arguement that you do not like this type of book, got no problem there but saying that nobody thinks the book is fun is pushing it, and saying it is a accurate depiction of the Dark Ages is also pushing it. I'd call it closer to a dark romance type of thing, sort of like the movie Excalibur, which had incest and murder and betrayal in it to but was very obviously a fantasy work. Martin doesn't write about peasants living in squaler he writes about brave knights and evil queens and all the types of stuff that have been making up fantasy and romance novels for hundreds of years, he is just telling a darker story than what most of the recent fantasy books have told.

 

[ssampier]

Martin is Fun

..snip... Martin doesn't write about peasants living in squaler he writes about brave knights and evil queens and all the types of stuff that have been making up fantasy and romance novels for hundreds of years, he is just telling a darker story than what most of the recent fantasy books have told.
Emphasis Mine

And that's exactly why I enjoy the series. It is not a tired story about a (relunctant) young boy with extraordinary powers. To George R.R. Martin detractors, your opinion is just as valid as mine. However, please avoid the trolls in this thread. I personally would like to discuss the characters and situations, rather the "Top 10 ways George R.R. Martin cannot write his way out of a paper bag".

Now that our focus is clear

 

[jdavis]

I never really got the beating this series got for being overly dark and gritty or too realistic for fantasy. It's not that dark or overly bloody or overly filled with sex, it seems to have a lot in common with the King Arthur legends. Yes people die, that's a part of the fact that a war is going on, yes the good guys lost the war in the south but they actually won at the wall, it's not like everything is lost or the story ended on a bad note it's only half finsihed. Arthur was betrayed by his best friend and his wife, was seduced by his sister and eventually killed by his son born of incest who was burning and pillaging the land, nobody goes on about how dark and depressing the Arthur legend was, in the end it worked out for the best for the land, we are nowhere near the end of Martin's tale but I bet it will not end with evil overunning the kingdom and everybody being turned into zombies, it will work out in the end, 4 books from now. It's sort of like putting down King Arthur when he is dying and the knights can't find the Holy Grail and saying "man that's just too dark and depressing, the good guys are dying" and never finishing the story, or putting down Lord of the Rings in the middle of the battle at Minas Tirth and assuming that they lost because good guys were dying.

The only major character who has died (Well besides the one who talking about requires a spoiler label) was Ned and his death is one of the main things that propelled the story forward. Yes lots of minor characters have died but there was a war going on. Nobody assumed the Empire won and decided to skip Return of the Jedi, stories like this are normally dark towards the middle, having the outlook grim and there being only a sliver of hope remaining is part on lots of stories, why does this series of unfinished books take such a pounding because bad things happened in the middle of it?

 

[Shadowdancer]

I read the series for fun.

That's also the reason I stopped reading Robert Jordan's "Wheel" novels at volume 6 -- they were no longer fun to read.

 

[LuYangShih]

Alright, I will admit that other people did and shall enjoy George R.R. Martins books. I should not have spoken for others. The bottom line, I suppose, is what Wippit Guud said when he started this topic. Who are the good guys? I want to have people to cheer for, and everyone in the books that was mostly noble/good has either been killed or been completely changed as the story progressed.

 

[jdavis]

The bottom line, I suppose, is what Wicht said when he started this topic. Who are the good guys? I want to have people to cheer for, and everyone in the books that was mostly noble/good has either been killed or been completely changed as the story progressed.

I'd still say Jon Snow. Everything he has done has been for a noble reason, he was trying to protect the wall. He is one of the few characters who is growing positively in the story. Bran would still be considered a good guy at this point it remains to be seen how he turns out in later books but he definitely is a good person so far. A good case could be made for Davos too athough his loyalty to Stannis has lead him into some bad stuff. Other than that there is not much for major characters (although there are several minor characters who are good and some who could be considered noble even).

 

[Olive]

Logic: Robert's heirs are the proper kings, because Robert overthrew the proper kings! Uh, right. (they did provide a hint of a trace of a possilbe lineage, but I'm sure such can be given for almost any lineage of the setting)

They deal with this in the books of course, when Renly discuses the fact.

As WizarDru said above, that's what history was like! You don't think that the House of Windsor was always the Royal familly of the UK do you?