Song of Ice and Fire question
- Thread starter Wippit Guud
- Start date
WizarDru
Adventurer
ssampier said:
Technically, I think Tyrion is a protagonist, not necessarily a 'hero'. Which, I think, is a major point of the series, in that no one is the perfect legendary hero.
This is, in fact, one of the biggest differences between Jordan and Martin, to me. In 'Wheel of Time', everyone complains how the legends and stories glorify the truth, ignore the ugly side of things and make everything sound like a grand adventure...but for the most part, the unpleasant part of the tales aren't really that unpleasant. In Jordan's story, the characters are dense, somewhat confused and have to deal with trivial details...but they are inside legends, and making them. In "Song of Ice and Fire", the stories are radically different from reality, which is far more unpleasant. Being a commoner in Jordan's world relegates you to the position of someone who is earthy and generally worships/adores the nobility. Being a commoner in Martin's world means trying to stay out of the notice of a noble, and just trying to eke out a living without being caught up in a maelstrom of politics, war and fear.
That was a very well thought out response. I would agree that Tyrion is a protagonist, not the protagonist. I think Jon Snow has some contention to that title.
My "good" comment was in the context of the simplicity of the fantasy genre. He still has his "streaks"; his association with whores, for example. He treats them well, though.
Spoiler....
.
.
.
Point noted. Who would the next heir of Casterly Rock be? One of the Freys I assume (with adequate lineage, of course)?
My "good" comment was in the context of the simplicity of the fantasy genre. He still has his "streaks"; his association with whores, for example. He treats them well, though.
Spoiler....
.
.
.
Point noted. Who would the next heir of Casterly Rock be? One of the Freys I assume (with adequate lineage, of course)?
stevelabny
Explorer
so, i caught onto this series supposedly being the best thing since sliced bread sometime around june when i got the fifth harry potter book.
i peeked at one thread , saw people talking about throwing the books across rooms, and telling those who havent read the books to run away from any and all spoilers...
i just finished the first three books...
WOW. that was some good stuff.
there is no way to comment on this series without giving SOMETHING away. even reviews I've read since give the first death away like its a gimme. Ugh. Im glad i didnt know.
But I really need to question why so many people are claiming Jon Snow is a good guy?
SPOILER SPACE HERE ( im gonna spoil stuff...be warned...go away)
*
*
*
*
*
ok... Jon isnt a good guy. He's almost as much of a schmuck as Catelyn is. Could he be any more clueless? to sum it up in simple terms "You know nothing, Jon Snow"
He never questions the WHY of anything. He never questions his father about why he's is treated like dirt by Catelyn or pushed aside when every lordly things arise at Winterfell. He just accepts it and blames himself when he gets bitter.
Mindless soldiering at the wall seemed like his best bet as soldiering always is for those who dont like to think for themselves.
But when he joins with the wildlings... all he can see is his duty to the Wall and never to himself. He can clearly see that the wildlings are no different that the people of the Seven Kingdoms. They've cast aside the stupid laws they have no need for but and have some strange customs but are not the immoral savages theyre painted as. Ygritte's position alone should have told Jon all he needed to know. She has freedoms that not only would a lowborn girl not have, but a highborn girl would not have either. And though Jon thinks "stealing wives" is a horrible idea, Ygritte gladly points out thats it better than being given away because at least you know your husband is strong and capable. But he pushes it away because its different from the way he was raised.
Jon had a wife, a potential group of allies and friends who wouldve been more loyal and trustworthy than most in the seven kingdoms and he refused to get close to them and learn more. IF he would have tried, he wouldve found that Mance is not only a cool guy, but he wasnt readying an atack, but running. He wouldve realized that more of the wildlings were just as civilized in their own way and friendly, loving, caring, and all those other sappy things as Ygritte. (Yes I'm aware that Mance could be lying about the running from the others, and wanting to go through the wall peacefully bit. But since his men were mostly NOT an army, I'm gonna believe him)
Instead he betrays them and runs back to the Wall. The Wall that he owes nothing to except a few words. The seven kingdoms that would just as soon forget he exists, even in his own father's home. to the wall, that almost winds up being run by such a noble gentleman as Janos Slynt. (proving that even the wall and the watch arent half as noble as they pretend to be)
He wonders (way too late) if maybe he SHOULD claim Winterfell, but before he can even decide, he is the lucky winner of the LORD COMMANDER sweepstakes. Now he gets to sit atop the cold wall, waiting to die in the first wave of Others, while some of his own men try to stab him in the back. lovely.
And all this in service of a "king" who thinks hes doing the right thing, but is following around an obvious fraud. Her behind the scenes maneuvers have killed thousands of Stannis' men, leaving Westeros open to attack from the east due to the extreme lack of a fleet off the eastern coast, and now left her in position to "light the way" for the others to find Westeros. ( Apparently the others, although harmed by fire, need to follow the warmth to their victims. At least, thats how its always come across to me)
Basically, I just can't forigve this "good-guy" Jon Snow for leaving Ygritte behind to die. She was one of the only characters with no ulterior motive. She was who she said she was. She was his. And now shes dead.
Jamie might be cold-hearted to those he should care about but doesnt (like his sons) and downright cruel to those he doesn't know (like Bran) BUT he had always at least tried to do right by those he cares about (like Cersei, Tyrion, and Brienne). This alone makes him more noble than Jon could ever hope to be.
If Jon doesnt care about himself, why should i???
steve
i needed that ramble...feel free to yell at me and make me dissect another character
i peeked at one thread , saw people talking about throwing the books across rooms, and telling those who havent read the books to run away from any and all spoilers...
i just finished the first three books...
WOW. that was some good stuff.
there is no way to comment on this series without giving SOMETHING away. even reviews I've read since give the first death away like its a gimme. Ugh. Im glad i didnt know.
But I really need to question why so many people are claiming Jon Snow is a good guy?
SPOILER SPACE HERE ( im gonna spoil stuff...be warned...go away)
*
*
*
*
*
ok... Jon isnt a good guy. He's almost as much of a schmuck as Catelyn is. Could he be any more clueless? to sum it up in simple terms "You know nothing, Jon Snow"
He never questions the WHY of anything. He never questions his father about why he's is treated like dirt by Catelyn or pushed aside when every lordly things arise at Winterfell. He just accepts it and blames himself when he gets bitter.
Mindless soldiering at the wall seemed like his best bet as soldiering always is for those who dont like to think for themselves.
But when he joins with the wildlings... all he can see is his duty to the Wall and never to himself. He can clearly see that the wildlings are no different that the people of the Seven Kingdoms. They've cast aside the stupid laws they have no need for but and have some strange customs but are not the immoral savages theyre painted as. Ygritte's position alone should have told Jon all he needed to know. She has freedoms that not only would a lowborn girl not have, but a highborn girl would not have either. And though Jon thinks "stealing wives" is a horrible idea, Ygritte gladly points out thats it better than being given away because at least you know your husband is strong and capable. But he pushes it away because its different from the way he was raised.
Jon had a wife, a potential group of allies and friends who wouldve been more loyal and trustworthy than most in the seven kingdoms and he refused to get close to them and learn more. IF he would have tried, he wouldve found that Mance is not only a cool guy, but he wasnt readying an atack, but running. He wouldve realized that more of the wildlings were just as civilized in their own way and friendly, loving, caring, and all those other sappy things as Ygritte. (Yes I'm aware that Mance could be lying about the running from the others, and wanting to go through the wall peacefully bit. But since his men were mostly NOT an army, I'm gonna believe him)
Instead he betrays them and runs back to the Wall. The Wall that he owes nothing to except a few words. The seven kingdoms that would just as soon forget he exists, even in his own father's home. to the wall, that almost winds up being run by such a noble gentleman as Janos Slynt. (proving that even the wall and the watch arent half as noble as they pretend to be)
He wonders (way too late) if maybe he SHOULD claim Winterfell, but before he can even decide, he is the lucky winner of the LORD COMMANDER sweepstakes. Now he gets to sit atop the cold wall, waiting to die in the first wave of Others, while some of his own men try to stab him in the back. lovely.
And all this in service of a "king" who thinks hes doing the right thing, but is following around an obvious fraud. Her behind the scenes maneuvers have killed thousands of Stannis' men, leaving Westeros open to attack from the east due to the extreme lack of a fleet off the eastern coast, and now left her in position to "light the way" for the others to find Westeros. ( Apparently the others, although harmed by fire, need to follow the warmth to their victims. At least, thats how its always come across to me)
Basically, I just can't forigve this "good-guy" Jon Snow for leaving Ygritte behind to die. She was one of the only characters with no ulterior motive. She was who she said she was. She was his. And now shes dead.
Jamie might be cold-hearted to those he should care about but doesnt (like his sons) and downright cruel to those he doesn't know (like Bran) BUT he had always at least tried to do right by those he cares about (like Cersei, Tyrion, and Brienne). This alone makes him more noble than Jon could ever hope to be.
If Jon doesnt care about himself, why should i???
steve
i needed that ramble...feel free to yell at me and make me dissect another character
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