Song of Ice and Fire question

[Sirius_Black]

Alright, The bottom line, I suppose, is what Wippit Guud said when he started this topic. Who are the good guys? I want to have people to cheer for, and everyone in the books that was mostly noble/good has either been killed or been completely changed as the story progressed.

To add on to JDavis' list: Arya Stark, Brienne of Tarth, and that's just off the top of my head.

Moreover, for myself, I can find characters to cheer for that aren't good. Specificially I mean Jaime Lannister. I mentioned him in my last post and I am really cheering for him to take advantage of this turning point he seems to be at and to change his life and character. He definitely seems to be moving away from the monster in Game of Thrones and is on some path of change based upon some of the sample chapters from Feast of Crows that apparently have been read at various conventions.

I can cheer for that.

 

[RyanL]

Once again, I agree with jdavis. I think Jon Snow is a "good guy", and is emerging as the closest thing this story has to a protagonist. If certain theories regarding Jon are true, then he really is the Song of Ice and Fire.

-Ryan

 

[Rune]

I think A Song of Ice and Fire is fun because it reminds me of Shakespeare.

Seriously.

 

[Vocenoctum]

They deal with this in the books of course, when Renly discuses the fact.

As WizarDru said above, that's what history was like! You don't think that the House of Windsor was always the Royal familly of the UK do you?

I said they mentioned something about Robert being distantly related. But at the same time, I'm sure that justification could be found for all of them. They didn't "disprove" why no one else could make the claim, they just seemed to accept that Robert had the claim.

And truthfully, in such matters, do you think most of the nobles cared? Certainly none of the peasants did.

 

[Olive]

And truthfully, in such matters, do you think most of the nobles cared? Certainly none of the peasants did.

Of course they did! this is the basis of feudalism we're talking about here. As stupid as it may seem to us today, these sorts of things were hugely important in a feudal society. After all, if you believe that there is a correct claim, that might make up your mind about who you fight for. In the books, it certainly had bearing on who fought against Robert for Aerys, despite Aerys being demonstrably insane.

 

[ssampier]

the dwarf!

Who do I cheer for? Tyrion, the dwarf. Sure he's on the "bad" side, but he is mocked and ridiculed by his own family. It with pleasure I can say that he is "winning" so far. Granted he is not a good guy by any stretch of the imagination. But he has a certain quality that just makes you want to root for him.

Now the good guy in the books?! Ned, certifiably Lawful Stupid. Good at heart, but at little more wise, Jon Snow.

Of course there is a part of me that wants Dany to win. Even though she's on the (other) "bad" side, she does have a heroine streak that lets the reader (me anyway), "It would be neat for Dany to waste Westeros with her three dragons."

SPOILERS
.

.

.

.

.

Speaking of Tyrion, does it actually say at the end of the Storm of Swords that Tywin died or is there a chance he's still alive?

 

[Olive]

Re: the dwarf!

Who do I cheer for? Tyrion, the dwarf. Sure he's on the "bad" side, but he is mocked and ridiculed by his own family. It with pleasure I can say that he is "winning" so far. Granted he is not a good guy by any stretch of the imagination. But he has a certain quality that just makes you want to root for him.

He's not far off being a good guy for most of it. He's kind to people, trys to limit the worst excesses of his family, recognises the evil in Joffery etc. He's kind to Jon Snow, and looks out for the smallfolk, even when they hate him.

And he doesn't even lust for blood like Ayra does half the time.

My goodies: Bran, Jon, Davos, Tyrion, Robb, Ned.

Next level: Arya, Catelyn, Sansa, Danerys, perhaps Varys, other Tullys etc. The good Black Watch people.

Neutral: Robert, Renly, Jaime (later on)

Evil: All the other Lannisters, Stannis, Littlefinger... pretty much every one else.

 

[jdavis]

Of course they did! this is the basis of feudalism we're talking about here. As stupid as it may seem to us today, these sorts of things were hugely important in a feudal society. After all, if you believe that there is a correct claim, that might make up your mind about who you fight for. In the books, it certainly had bearing on who fought against Robert for Aerys, despite Aerys being demonstrably insane.

Robert had the best claim of those who were on his side in the war. Of course they didn't go to war because he had a good claim to the throne, they went to war because the king was executing members of their families and was insane. Robert not only had a good claim to the throne after it was over but he was also a charismatic hero of the revolution, he was well loved by the people. Of course the thing is after he takes the throne it doesn't matter anymore how strong anyone elses claim is, he started a new line of kings, once in place it's his heirs who will be king, that's how it works, his children were his heirs, the problem being that children of Jaime and Cersie are not his children and therefore are not his heirs. They would have no hold or claim to the throne and would carry little public support as they are not tied to King Robert Baratheon in any way shape or form, they are just a embarasing Lannister family secret exposed.

As far as the logic here goes well it is pretty obvious, Robert was king his heirs are his children then his brothers, his is the New Dynasty started by him, very few people even suspect that a Targaryen heir survived, when he became king all claims of kingship now come through relation to him, the old line is though to be dead. Robb never claimed kingship of everything just kingship of the North (which was historically a independant kingdom), Stannis and Renly pressed their claims to the throne because they knew Roberts children were not really his (even though they failed to prove it to the general public), nobody else pressed a claim to the throne because the throne now belongs to house Baratheon.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Re: Re: the dwarf!

He's not far off being a good guy for most of it. He's kind to people, trys to limit the worst excesses of his family, recognises the evil in Joffery etc. He's kind to Jon Snow, and looks out for the smallfolk, even when they hate him.

I liked Tyrion well enough, until the later chapters with his father. He seemed to lose all his wit. Even what he possessed when he previously dealt with his father. I can understand the battle and blah blah, but as with the Robert Is King stuff, it's not appealing to me as a reader to have the character so blah.

Just another opinion of course.

 

[Sirius_Black]

Re: the dwarf!

SPOILERS
.

.

.

.

.

Speaking of Tyrion, does it actually say at the end of the Storm of Swords that Tywin died or is there a chance he's still alive?

Deader than a door nail according to everything I've heard from people who got to hear sample chapters read at conventions. Moreover, in the preview chapter of Feast of Crows in the paperback version I have, the setting is Tywin's funeral.

Truth be told, Tyrion is another person I find myself cheering for. He treated Sansa very well given their situation. Additionally, he killed Tywin and slapped the you know what out of Joffrey on more than one occasion. The latter action alone should pardon him for any crime.