Song of Ice and Fire question

[jdavis]

This is what I get for not checking the boards for a few days....

Martin's writing style: well I like it but I can understand where not everyone would. The events and storylines that people said turned them off to the story (Red Wedding) got me even more interested. (SPOILERS):Other shockers, Bran being tossed off a tower, Ned's Execution, Joffrey's wedding, Jaime loosing his hand, Renly's Murder, a half dozen or so bad things that happen to Jon Snow, Jon Snow turning down Winterfell for the Wall, Most of what Daenerys does, burning of Winterfell, Lady Lysa's murder, well I could go on and on and any one of those was as bad or worse than the Red Wedding, his stories are full of these type of things, the Red Wedding fit in perfect with the rest of the book and it was great to see really bad things can happen to the good guys too (although I hate Catelyn but I'll get to that later).

Jaime and Cersei: Ned Stark's whole part of the first book was about him looking into Robert's children and what the secret that Jon Arryn knew was (the one that got them both killed). Stannis is actually the rightful king (even though nobody likes him), the secret of Jaime fathering the children is what is being protected, not that incest isn't bad but this is about who is actually in line for Kingship, the Lannisters only claim is through Cersei's children, a little public humilation is nothing compared to loosing the throne. Heck I even think Jamie stated he wished it was out in the open, the Targaryens traditionally practiced incest, it was part of their heritage from when the first came to Westros, the incest would of been accepted (well it would of been scorned behind their backs and they would be laughing stocks but as long as they held the throne it would be accepted). The problem is that the charge of incest would make people question if Cersei's children were actually King Robert's children (it was repeatedly stated they didn't look like Robert at all). If they are not Roberts then they are not in line for the throne, if they are not in line for the throne then all support for the Lannisters dries up in a instant. Yes the rumors are already out there (Stannis knows and Bran knows) but it is not generally known. The loss of power is what Cersei fears, she cares nothing at all for morality or if it's a sin, and Jaime actually loves her he thinks they are meant to be together, he would like nothing better than it to be in the open, he keeps it secret because he does what she tells him to do, morals have nothing to do with it (yet at least).

Catelyn: why do people get worked up over what happened to her? She was annoying and the Red Wedding was the best thing in the series containing her. Robb, well Robb was a gonner from the start, he and Rikkon were the non-POV Stark children. THe Red Wedding sets Aria up wonderfully and she was infinatly more interesting than Robb or Catelyn. I loved the Red Wedding, it was one of the most suprising events I have ever read in a book, I never got upset or threw the book or lost interest or anything that was a great scene. The effects of the Red Wedding will drive the storylines of half the characters of the books, nobody died that hurt the storyline (Spoiler: Nobody died that actually hurt the storyline, well those who are not there will understand by the end of the book ). It also gives the readers a family to truly hate now that the Lannisters seem to be running thin.

The suspense of the way he writes is what keeps me interested, I actually pay attention and care because I know that the hero might not come out on top, heck they might die, poorly. The unexpected may be around every page it keeps me interested. It is still fantasy and I don't see it as more realistic or anything it's just more edge of your seat and unexpected.

 

[Vocenoctum]

This is what I get for not checking the boards for a few days....

Martin's writing style: well I like it but I can understand where not everyone would. The events and storylines that people said turned them off to the story (Red Wedding) got me even more interested. (SPOILERS):Other shockers, Bran being tossed off a tower, Ned's Execution, Joffrey's wedding, Jaime loosing his hand, Renly's Murder, a half dozen or so bad things that happen to Jon Snow, Jon Snow turning down Winterfell for the Wall, Most of what Daenerys does, burning of Winterfell, Lady Lysa's murder, well I could go on and on and any one of those was as bad or worse than the Red Wedding, his stories are full of these type of things, the Red Wedding fit in perfect with the rest of the book and it was great to see really bad things can happen to the good guys too (although I hate Catelyn but I'll get to that later).

The Jon Snow plot was decent, I think I like him somewhat. Bran is almost interesting.

It's just that too much of their chapters are tedious. Arya's stuff with Clengan was nice, because there was something there.

As I mentioned, I didn't like Catalyn, but I also felt every chapter she was in, was just not well written. (not even just her actions.) If Frey is that powerful and central to control of the continent, he should have declared himself king or something. It's again, just tedious for me.

Dany's stuff also seems so-so to me. I can understand that traveling is tedious, but we shouldn't have to read about it!
I did like the Kingsguard fella, but that's about it.

Also, I got tired of Tyrion's interactions with his father, because he was clueless all of a sudden. Sure he's afraid of his father, but the way he acted just didn't seem to make sense.

Jaime was better after they went into more detail with him. He could turn out well.

And, I didn't like Littlefinger at all either. He seems just boring. Hopefully he's a servant of Darkness or Winter or whatever, and gets a personality.


Oh, the the guy with the flayed man symbol (the bastard) I didn't like him much either, and find the whole "hide Bran and Rickon" thread disappointing.

Eh, I dunno. It just seems it had so much potential, and just turned on me at some point.

 

[ssampier]

Future Possibilities (Speculation)

SPOILERS

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Ah I see. I should have known it all amounts to claim. Of course since Winterfell is currently in the hands of Theon Greyjoy (or was) we will wait for the impact of another heir.

BTW, what happened to Rikkon? And what will become of Arya since she is now bound for Braavos?

Since our "good lady" Lysa is dead and the dwarf escaped, I can assume they will have a man-hunt for both the dwarf and Sansa.

Who are they going to blame for Lord Tywin's death I wonder?! Cersei "cheating" will probably will be wide open since it repeatedly noted that Jaime had not lain with another woman besides Cersei; not even the pretty, freckled girl at Harrenhal. My prediction: Cersei dies (possibly at the hand of Jaime).

 

[WizarDru]

I think part of some folks dissatisfaction with "Song of Ice and Fire", like Kahuna Burger, is one of expectation (though I couldn't claim to speak for her, or know her mind). If you enter into the series with the expectation of certain tropes being present, such as eventual noble hero appearing, or even a flawed central character stepping to the fore...you will be disappointed.

It is an ensemble cast, with NO central character, other than Westeros itself. It has more in common with, say, "E/R" than it does with "the Green Knight". Many facets of the books serve that end. Several times we are fed characters who seem like they will fill that role, and then they are shuffled off-stage by events. Ned and Robb Stark both appear to be central characters...or at least focal point characters, who will drive the story. The Red Wedding was upsetting not just for it's events, but for the knowledge that there is no certainty, no handy pattern to follow, and no character who will eventually rise from the others to become the one to follow. It tells us that, overall, the land of Westeros is bleak, harsh and unforgiving. That can be a very unpleasant thing to read, and is, in many ways, the exact antithesis of what some readers came looking for.

If I can use KB as an example, here:

Originally posted by Kahuna Burger
novels are about vicarious enjoyment of others' stories
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Fantasy doesn't stick to certain heroic conventions because the writers CAN'T write about pointless puppy kicking, it sticks to the conventions because they make good fiction.
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The moment I realized what was happening at the wedding, the entire thing stopped being a story that I could lose myself in..

The last quote, I think, illustrates what I'm trying to say. Some folks are coming to the series, hoping for one thing, and getting another. That doesn't make the series bad, it doesn't mean the reader has poor taste or can't appreciate the work...just that they don't like it. Readers like KB are looking to warp themselves up in a story and be swept away...something that one could 'Song' doesn't do. It doesn't take me to a place I'd want to go, but I place I (personally) enjoy seeing. It is not an idealized or romanticized version of the middle ages...it's fairly spot on in many points. In all it's unpleasant ugliness, at points.

I know many folks who don't like Eddings work on exactly the opposite grounds. And AFAIC, those folks are no more or less correct in their assertions. There is no single work that everyone can point to and say that everyone likes. Which is a good thing, most likely.

 

[Farganger]

As I mentioned, I didn't like Catalyn, but I also felt every chapter she was in, was just not well written. (not even just her actions.) If Frey is that powerful and central to control of the continent, he should have declared himself king or something. It's again, just tedious for me.

Dany's stuff also seems so-so to me. I can understand that traveling is tedious, but we shouldn't have to read about it!
I did like the Kingsguard fella, but that's about it.

I felt the same - particularly about the Dany chapters.

Overall, Martin's writing is very good, but the Dany chapters seemed badly constructed and stylistically out of place. In particular . . .

SPOILER
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. . . the eunuch warriors and the absolutely incredible stupidity of the supposedly crafty mercantile race that trained and purveyed them were to my mind the low points in the books to date. A lot of clumsy exposition so you'd know the eunuchs would give their entire loyalty to their "owner", yet the merchant-trainers were somehow entirely oblivious to how that wonderful selling-point of their product could be easily turned against them.

A true "Doh!" moment and (happily) uncharacteristic of the author.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I read a statement about Kurt Vonnegut today that reminded me of this thread.

Kurt Vonnegut once offered a trenchant piece of advice for fiction writers:

Do not be afraid to have your characters do terrible things. You see, the protective nature of a writer wants readers to like the creatures that have sprung from his or her imagination. Even the bad ones.

Vonnegut says, if they’re bad people, let them be bad.

I think Martin has taken this advice to heart.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I think part of some folks dissatisfaction with "Song of Ice and Fire", like Kahuna Burger, is one of expectation (though I couldn't claim to speak for her, or know her mind). If you enter into the series with the expectation of certain tropes being present, such as eventual noble hero appearing, or even a flawed central character stepping to the fore...you will be disappointed.

What killed my expectactions:
Sex: every chapter in the latter two books managed to fit sex in. Rape, consensual, whatever. In the chapters centered around Arya, the eight year old, there's still sex in nearly every chapter. It was to me, excessive and ruined the feel of the Story of Westeros.

Stupidity: the whole "mothers love" notion is so-so, but really the idea that she'd ever see her daughters in exchange for Jaime.. There's more too, just inherently stupid things in the books that jar me from the setting and my suspension of disbelief.

Length: I bought the books because they were 700+ pages, I enjoyed it. By the end, I felt they were being padded. I fear the next novel will be worse. You can say "the good guys don't always win in this story", and I'll agree, but if you say "reading about tedious pointless journeying is character building" I'll have to disagree.

Logic: Robert's heirs are the proper kings, because Robert overthrew the proper kings! Uh, right. (they did provide a hint of a trace of a possilbe lineage, but I'm sure such can be given for almost any lineage of the setting)
The only defense of our city will respond only to their current owner, and we'll happily sell them because we have no other defense!

There's other complaints, but really I mostly enjoyed the books. 1 left me really wanting to read 2 and 2 left me barely able to wait until 3.

But 3 makes me afraid that 4 will be horrible,
I like Arya, I don't want to read about her training.
Dany, likewise, her activities until the next important phase are unimportant.

Ah well.

 

[KenM]

I'm 150 pages into Storm of Swords. As for all the extra stuff with Dany, I think Martin has a reason for this. The only thing i'm starting to get tired of is Bran dreaming he is an animal almost EVERY time you read about Him.

 

[Dagger75]

I like Arya, I don't want to read about her training.

Really, I actually hope he gets into that.


To each his own I guess.

 

[WizarDru]

What killed my expectactions:
Sex: every chapter in the latter two books managed to fit sex in. Rape, consensual, whatever. In the chapters centered around Arya, the eight year old, there's still sex in nearly every chapter. It was to me, excessive and ruined the feel of the Story of Westeros.

Well, all I say to that is that while you may not like it, I don't necessarily see it as bad, per se. People have sex. A lot. And in a culture where a woman's most powerful asset is the ability to provide a male heir, you're going to have it as part of the story. Part of Sansa's whole arc is to show up how she's been raised on chivalric notions, and how she discovers (to her regret) that most of them are fabrications or gloss over the truth.

Logic: Robert's heirs are the proper kings, because Robert overthrew the proper kings! Uh, right. (they did provide a hint of a trace of a possilbe lineage, but I'm sure such can be given for almost any lineage of the setting)

True enough on the face of it, but we're talking politics, here. Take a good look at many of the wars fought throughout the middle-ages to the present day...lineage was a tool to promote legitimacy, but it could be (and was) circumvented easily enough. A lot of such elements in "Song" are there because Martin took them from history. Take a look at the first English Civil War between King Stephen and Queen Maude (Cadfeal, anyone?) and then the War of the Roses. You'll find a lot of analogs to the series.

None of which matters a whit towards your enjoyment of the series or anyone's interpetation of the merit of its inclusion in the story, of course....I just wanted to point out that many of these elements weren't non-sensical...any more than 3 day feasts were (which are also historically accurate).

I like Arya, I don't want to read about her training.
Dany, likewise, her activities until the next important phase are unimportant.

I'm pretty sure this was the problem GRRM has run into. His original plan called for a 5-year gap between books three and four, and most likely accounted for Bran, Sansa, Rickon and Arya all growing into very different adults. However, he found it unsatisfying, as I think I would, to wave a magic wand and have the characters just change. To accomadate that would require large chunks of 'here's what happened' exposition, which I think would make the next book tedious.

I only wish Jordan would show as much consideration for his story...but then, I think Jordan has found himself outmatched by his own premise...and that's a topic for another thread.