Song of Ice and Fire question

[Starman]

Warning: There may be spoilers ahead.






Wow, that's a pretty harsh assessment of Jon. He gave his word that he would give his life to the Wall. He struggled with that before when he found out that Ned was dead and that Robb had called the banners and marched to war. His friends persuaded him that he belonged to the Night's Watch and so he did not desert. I think we will see Jon become more and more like Eddard, upholding law and honor and such above other things. He gave his life to the Wall before he met Ygritte, therefore honor and duty required him to go back.

Had he stayed with Ygritte it would have a) haunted him for the rest of his life and b) (most likely) resulted in dire consequences for the Seven Kingdoms. Although it is foolish to make predictions about character's fates, I think it is safe to say that Jon will play a major part in defeating the Others.

Starman

 

[EricNoah]

I just saw at Amazon.com that the new release date is June 2004?? If so, wah!!, If not ... well, in the immortal words of Phil Hartman, "It's not so much funny 'ha-ha' as funny 'boo-hoo that sucks'!"

 

[stevelabny]

more spoilers....
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[Had he stayed with Ygritte it would have a) haunted him for the rest of his life and b) (most likely) resulted in dire consequences for the Seven Kingdoms. Although it is foolish to make predictions about character's fates, I think it is safe to say that Jon will play a major part in defeating the Others.
Starman[/QUOTE]

Well, I was purposely harsh. Just because the whole point of writing the series through the eyes of multiple POV characters is so that you can see everything from one side, the other side, and the neutral side.
I am AMAZED at how many posts I've read in other places where people HATE Jaime until he becomes a POV, and then all of a sudden they feel for him. But yet they continue to bash the other non-POV characters.

Every character has done misddeeds. and almost every one of those can rationalize them. I dont know why so many people can only relate to POV characters. I much prefer most of the non-povs.

But back to Jon... he swore his words to the wall. how is that any different that his promises/responsibilties to Ygritte. for the record, he also swore words to Mance...so his word is worthless anyway.

I also stand by my statement that neither the Wall or the Seven Kingdoms are "noble causes" worth keeping your word to. Especially not compared to the free folk and a lover.

I don't accept these concepts of honor and duty that people thinks he has. The most basic forms of honor and duty are to yourself, your family, then your people or relgion or race or whatever.

And I'd rather be living happily with Ygritte until the great battle comes and worrying about be haunted by breaking my word to the wall.
Then be on the wall, and haunted by Ygritte.

And if the popular theories hold, what will he he do after he sleeps with Dany and finds out shes his aunt? Not that I necessarily subscribe to either of those theories

 

[Olive]

Steve,

pretty much none of that means he isn't good. In fact some people would argue that's exactly WHY he is good. And lawful.

 

[Olive]

I don't accept these concepts of honor and duty that people thinks he has. The most basic forms of honor and duty are to yourself, your family, then your people or relgion or race or whatever.

Maybe not, but that just means you have pretty different concepts of good than are commonly accepted in the books.

 

[WizarDru]

I don't think spoiler notices are really necessary, this far down in the thread, where casual mentions to major 3rd book events have been made. However, if you gotten this far without hitting any, skip this post.

Jon Snow is about as a good a character as his 'father'. To isolate Jon's choices to the moment is to ignore one of the key driving factors of the series: tradition and social convention are important. And to characters in 'Song', much like actual people of our medieval period, define themselves by their family, their relationships and their place in society.

Jon Snow is a bastard. Think about that for a moment, in the context of the stories culture. Illegitimate sons are immediately recognized as a product of an unsanctioned union just by their names, and the more powerful the noble, the greater the embarassment. Their fates are often not pleasant. Consider the three biggest bastards in the series, namely: Jon Snow, Gendry and the bastard of the Flayed Man's house. View how each is regarded. Some bastards are abandoned to the elements (and considering how we never even see female 'illegitimates', this may be even more common for baby girls...brrr).

Jon Snow has been raised by Eddard Stark with the understanding that he is lucky, LUCKY, to have been treated so well. His wife sees Jon Snow as a constant reminder of an infidelity that he insists on fluanting in her face. That we now suspect that this is a complete fabrication is irrelevant. Snow was raised by Stark as a law-abiding man with little regard for himself and no expectation of greater things in life. Gendry's fate is even quite favorable, as the king watches after him when he can, until things go sour. The bastard of the Flayed Man's house is considered to be half-mad, evil and bloodthirsty...and that's seen as much as his blood being 'dirty' as anything else. Luckily for him, his father appears to consider that as an asset.

So it is that when Jon goes to the Wall, he swears the oath. His father demands it of him, and his father is an honorable man. Make no mistake, Jon loves Ned Stark, regardless of his heritage or even treatment, at times. He honors his oath because he was raised that way, wants to honor his father's name, believes that it is his place in society and still associates himself as a Stark, even if he knows he can never truly be one (or so we think).

Is he happy with Ygritte and among the wildmen? Yes, after a fashion. But he wasn't raised with their ways, and their culture is radically different in some ways. Like the Iron Men, the wildlings value strength over other things, and it's no more of a democracy than Westeros...the only difference is that power is much more mercurial. Mance isn't a bad person, from what we see, but he doesn't much care about people getting hurt, and if the folk south of the wall get looted, killed or raped, it doesn't bother him much. He recognizes talented individuals and leaders around him, it's true, but his meritocratic ways are balanced on a knife edge. Jon is more aware than the average noble about the plight of the people, and realizes that for the most part, the wildlings represent total chaos. They are bringing violence and pillaging southwards, and they aren't looking to join the system, just smash it down. And Jon Snow was raised to believe that the system is what works and that his duty is to defend it.

Had Jon robotically followed the path he has without doubt, fear or regret...then he'd be somewhat hard to accept. But as it is, he has faced hard truths and done what was asked of him, even when it was more difficult and potentially costly than anything he'd ever done before. He has sacrificed his own personal happiness for the greater good, and always sought to protect those around him.

Jon Snow is THE hero of the series, IMHO. No other character except possibly Bran can lay claim to making as many good, hard choices and staying true to his path.

 

[Sirius_Black]

stevelabny posted:

so, i caught onto this series supposedly being the best thing since sliced bread sometime around june when i got the fifth harry potter book

It is wonderful isn't it. I can't recall the last time a series has excited me so much and frustrated me so much with having to wait until the next book.

there is no way to comment on this series without giving SOMETHING away. even reviews I've read since give the first death away like its a gimme. Ugh. Im glad i didnt know

I've very glad I avoided, save for one instance, spoilers on this book. I really hope when the next book comes out there are no instances of people putting spoilers in the titles of threads. Laugh, but I've seen it happen on some boards.

But I really need to question why so many people are claiming Jon Snow is a good guy?

Is there a good guy in Martin's series? Seriously, I do think Jon Snow is a good, young man and I think some of your comments about him were harsh.

Spoilers Folks, turn back now or I'll reveal how the Matrix series ends..

He's almost as much of a schmuck as Catelyn is. Could he be any more clueless?

First off, he's 15, 16 maybe now. Give him some credit there for keeping his head about him while others are losing theirs.....literally sometimes. I know grown adults that freaked and paniked when facing situations not nearly as horrifying as the ones Jon has faced. For the most part, I think he's done very well and is not that clueless, but learning and growing.

I also see you've joined the "I hate Catelyn fan club." I'll reiterate what I've said about Jon briefly for her. Consider what she has gone through and seen in front of her very eyes......I think she held up well. As for the last part of "A Storm of Swords" ...well....she is still holding up, somewhat.

He never questions his father about why he's is treated like dirt by Catelyn or pushed aside when every lordly things arise at Winterfell.

He's a bastard. I don't see how he could question Catelyn's attitude or not being seated at the table when the King/Queen came to visit. Many noble ladies like Catelyn would see Jon as nothing but an insult. Moreover, Ned's own refusal to divulge the circumstances surrounding his birth had to only add fuel to Catelyn's fire. I still don't think it excuses her reaction to Jon when he wanted to say goodbye to Bran. But, again, Catelyn was a grieving mother and Jon stood his ground and would not leave until he said goodbye.

Of course, Ned's refusal to talk about Jon's origins opens up another door on the fact I don't think he's Ned's bastard, but I digress....

But when he joins with the wildlings... all he can see is his duty to the Wall and never to himself. He can clearly see that the wildlings are no different that the people of the Seven Kingdoms. They've cast aside the stupid laws they have no need for but and have some strange customs but are not the immoral savages theyre painted as.

He has sworn himself to the Nightwatch. Jon took orders from a superior to kill said superior and infiltrate this group that was threatening the Kingdom. What as a soldier was he to do?

I understand the comments you make about the Wildlings. They are not the total savages many view them as. However, they are not the romanticized notion that you seem to be getting at. They would have brought nothing but chaos and anarchy to the rest of the lands.

IF he would have tried, he wouldve found that Mance is not only a cool guy, but he wasnt readying an atack, but running. He wouldve realized that more of the wildlings were just as civilized in their own way and friendly, loving, caring, and all those other sappy things as Ygritte

Yes, there were many good people in the Wildlings. That doesn't mean they should have been allowed to just roam South. It seems your anger towards Jon comes from the fact you wish he had stayed with the Wildlings and forgotten his oath to the Nightwatch? If he had done so, other readers would be screaming at him and calling him a traitor.

Instead he betrays them and runs back to the Wall. The Wall that he owes nothing to except a few words.

A person's word is still their word. Especially in a setting like Westeros, a man or leader's word is very big. If you want to look for proof of that, do I have to bring up what caused the events of the Red Wedding?

The seven kingdoms that would just as soon forget he exists, even in his own father's home. to the wall, that almost winds up being run by such a noble gentleman as Janos Slynt. (proving that even the wall and the watch arent half as noble as they pretend to be)

Yes, many have forgotten Jon Snow. But, I think one didn't. I think Robb, with one of his last actions (don't recall the page number) before he got to the aforementioned Wedding, named Jon his heir. If that's the case, we are in for some interesting times when that comes to light. And it definitely can since, as the last chapter of "A Storm of Swords" reveals, not all of Robb's men were killed.

You are dead on criticizing, IMHO, the Nightwatch for nearly electing Janos Slynt. They like other organizations, can make horrible mistakes.

He wonders (way too late) if maybe he SHOULD claim Winterfell, but before he can even decide, he is the lucky winner of the LORD COMMANDER sweepstakes. Now he gets to sit atop the cold wall, waiting to die in the first wave of Others, while some of his own men try to stab him in the back. lovely.

He thinks he's doing the right think by staying there. Give me a person who believes that any day over someone who knows they are doing things for ulterior motives or is uncertain.

And all this in service of a "king" who thinks hes doing the right thing, but is following around an obvious fraud.

Ah, Melisandre. I have gone back and forth on what her motives are. When she did what she did with Renly, I was so ready to paint her into the Fray corner as I call it now. However, there is something there. She honestly seems to believe she's doing the right thing in how she's been advising and helping Stannis.

I used to think no matter what that Renly's assassination was just horribly wrong and unfair for a King like Stannis to do. Then I read on another board some people who met George R.R. Martin and brought up Renly's murder and how they disliked it. To paraphrase his response

"So if you had the chance to kill Hitler with one fell swoop or act, you wouldn't?"

Now, I don't think Renly was Hitler. But, if Stannis and Melisandre think that by killing him they can save thousands of lives, well......frightening what actions humans will take if they think they are doing it for the greater good.

Basically, I just can't forigve this "good-guy" Jon Snow for leaving Ygritte behind to die.

Nor do I think he will ever forgive himself. One of the most touching images I have obtained is a "You know Nothing Jon Snow" drawing right as Ygritte dies. It's sad, but what else was he to do? Take her with him? Impossible. Stay? Wasn't going to happen. So, what was he to do?

Jamie might be cold-hearted to those he should care about but doesnt (like his sons) and downright cruel to those he doesn't know (like Bran)

Jaime doesn't feel fatherly towards his children with Cersei because he's never been allowed to be a father. Jeoffrey was to Jaime exactly what Jaime summed it up very explicitly and too graphic for this board. I'm glad Martin did not show this romantic notion of a father watching from the distance and still loving his son. Now, from the preview chapter I've read and heard about, Jaime does appear to be trying to be somewhat more of a paternal figure to Tommen. However, it will remain to be seen how far he's allowed to carry any such actions.

i needed that ramble...feel free to yell at me and make me dissect another character

Please ramble again any time. I know I disagreed with you on a great deal that you posted. But, I love to see people passionate about books that they enjoyed. You definitely showed that and thank you for your post.

Additionally, for those who like Jon Snow I have come across some new images of him at a Song of Fire and Ice Board. The drawings show Jon with Arya, I think right after he gives Needle to her and Jon with Mormont (spelling). If anyone wants the link to the images, just let me know. The works are very well done IMHO.

 

[Sirius_Black]

I just saw at Amazon.com that the new release date is June 2004?? If so, wah!!, If not ... well, in the immortal words of Phil Hartman, "It's not so much funny 'ha-ha' as funny 'boo-hoo that sucks'!"

To paraphrase what Martin has said I think on his own board and other message boards, "I have no idea where they get their release dates."

Martin has stated he will post on his official site the moment's he's done with the book. From then, it's four months until it's released into the UK and six months for the US.

Now somebody with an understanding of the publishing world help me make sense of that? Because, it happens with Raymond Feist's works too. And no one from the UK chiming in with we need the extra two months because we are such poor editors in the US. I know we read and write gooder English here.

 

[Sirius_Black]

stevelabny stated:

I am AMAZED at how many posts I've read in other places where people HATE Jaime until he becomes a POV, and then all of a sudden they feel for him. But yet they continue to bash the other non-POV characters.

What's the old saying? Don't judge a person until you walk a mile in his/her shoes? Is that an old proverb? Or did I just paraphrase a bible saying? Trust me, I've heard of it someplace and it definitely seems to apply in Martin's series.

I'm really curious to see if people start feeling towards a new POV we will see in Feast of Crows the same ambigious feelings that some readers now feel towards Jaime.

Every character has done misddeeds. and almost every one of those can rationalize them. I dont know why so many people can only relate to POV characters. I much prefer most of the non-povs.

I can honestly relate/understand almost every character's actions be they POV or none. The only action I just had extreme problems with was the action of a family at the Red Wedding. I understood it, but it just went against some of my own moral codes on how far to take things.

And if the popular theories hold, what will he he do after he sleeps with Dany and finds out shes his aunt? Not that I necessarily subscribe to either of those theories

Then he, Dany, Cersei and Jaime can all go on Jerry Springer. Seriously, you definitely seem to have heard some of the theories behind Jon's parentage...I'm curious..what is your take on his origins?

 

[stevelabny]

You are now in the Spoiler Zone, I hijacked this thread after finishing the series so far. My apologies. But you really should went out and bought the books by now. Yes, I mean you.

WizardDru / Sirius Black... your posts almost convinced me that this all stems from my own peronal problems with most forms of authority , especially the bigger and nonsencial red-tape and overly regulated types of leadership. almost.

of course, i never felt the need to take jon down a peg until i reaad everyone calling him a hero, so this probably tells you something else too. I guess I'm just saying that if I had a choice of which character to befriend and trust with my life, it wouldnn't be Jon, cuz he'd leave me to die the next time duty came up. (it would be Arya, cuz nobody expects her to be a cold-blooded killer)

curious..what is your take on his origins?

as I was reading the books, it never dawned on me that Jon wasn't Ned's and I kept looking (and failing) to find clues pointing to his mother. When Lysa and Littlefinger were talking about their pregnancy, I wondered if it was anyway possible that Jon was the result of that (leading to the book 7 "i am your father" moment between "hero" Jon and chief-dung-stirrer Littlefinger) but quickly decided I've watched too many soap operas.
When I read the Lyanna-Rhaegar theory a few hours after finishing ASOS I have to admit... its the most likely I think we're gonna find. Holy Ned retains his honor, Catelyn looks like an even bigger idiot, Valiant Rhaegar gets an heir, Jon gets the blood of Ice and Fire , Dany gets a relative, and the Stark kids get another reason to turn on him if they feel like it.

I'm a bit annoyed I didnt see it myself, but I think where I had problem keeping track of soooo many characters (with the same name even) was not in the present timeline, but with the stories of the history. It was hard to keep them straight, especially in the first two books. These books almost beg me to go back and re-read them right now, but I'll wait a bit. Maybe reread the Belgariad and see if it holds up at all.

I caught on to the Renly-Loras thing after spendng the first two books saying "of course every one thinks the pretty boys are gay, doesnt mean they are". Heh. Almost reverse psychologied my way out of that one.
I really l ike my Melisandre "lighting the way" theory. (but only cuz i havent seen it elsewhere) But either way, I dont think she's really a good priestess of a good god trying to save the world. Not no way, not no how.
I really hope that the other new POV is Asha (not Osha). This chick rocked on toast. Would love to see her do what Cersei can't and climb onto the throne in Pyke.
Would also really dig a Loras POV but that ain't bloody likely to happen with so many POVs in King's Landing already.
Sandor vs Jaqen (sp?) is the fight that I'd pay to see. These two are clearly the "Boba Fetts" of this universe.
And while I'm at it... how much like a big-screen epic do these books read? From the birth of the dragons scene at the end of book one, to the battle of Blackwater Bay, and the Red Wedding...WOW. And it never comes across as pandering to the big screen (as the climax to Order of the Phoenix did)
Am I the only one who wants all the words to "The Bear and the Maiden Fair"?
Is anyone else wondering how dense Dany is that she counted Jorah's betrayal as TWO?
and one last thing,
HODOR