Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 3)

[Khaalis]

Here's something I see as wrong with this class. {Snip}

While we all thank you for your input and comments, most of what you say here has been hashed out and discussed ad nauseum in the previous 300+ posts so I am not going to attempt to rehash it here. If you would really like to understand the logic to this build, and as to why it is seen as balanced by the many fans of the build, please go check the previous threads.

However, in saying that, please take it with a grain of salt especially if you are a Core Purist… in which case I would save you the time and effort because you will never be swayed to believe that the Sorcerer is THE weakest class in the game mechanics-wise and design-wise, or that bringing in ideas from Unearthed Arcana is a good idea.

Stalker0 = I like the new change, but I think I agree with keeping the spontaneous uses on the theme spells only, and I would leave the feats to only the +1 feats.
Its one thing to extend or enlarge a spell, that's handy but not usually a huge powerboost. Being able to maximise or empower a spell is a lot more.
That way we're adding a new cool mechanic, but its limited in power and scope, keeping it in line with everything else.
Coredump = 'Generalist' (I agree, it needs a different name gets to change one of the lineage spells to an innate spell-like ability at 7th level (well they all do, but the 'problem occurs with the generalist). But this can almost be a penalty, since they can no longer use their metamagic with that spell. So if they had gotten used to using their 'benefit' metamagic on their 1st level Lineage spell, they are no longer allowed to do that. I would say they can stilll use their metamagic on it. I don't think it really changes that much.

There is one Key issue with keeping the High End Spontaneous Metamagic for the lineage spells only as pointed out by Coredump. I mentioned this a ways back, but had let it slide and forgot to reinforce it when I posted the new idea. The problem is that the 1st level version, is intended to be a more limited version, but it also becomes even more limited as the sorcerer progresses in level. Yes you get the one +0 or +1 level Metamagic feat that you can use CHA Mod. times per day “on the fly” but it can only be applied to Lineage Spells. This is, by its nature, the limit that becomes more restrictive over time. Why? Because you lose 3 spells from the ability by 14th level. So instead of having 10 lineage spells to use this on (9 if it is a +1 level feat), it drops to 7 (or only 6 if it is a +1 level feat).

What I think we can do is compromise and meet in the middle. Let the abilities gained at 9th, 17th, and 20th actually be an increased version as they should be since no other class gets the equivalent of a 1st level ability at these high of levels. To meet in the middle, we can remove the “Power Feats” (Maximize, etc.) from the options, but let the feat work on any spell known. (See Below)

Now as to allowing the 1st level feat to carry over to the Spell-Like Abilities. While it might sound like a good idea, I don’t feel that it is balanced. A Spell-Like Ability already gains the advantage of requiring no components (v, s or m/f). That is basically an improved Eschew Material, and the Silent Spell and Still Spell feats all rolled into one. To add spontaneous metamagic on top of it would either be redundant since most sorcerers will take Silent or Still (and already have Eschew) or would be too much of an advantage to add Extend, Enlarge, Heighten etc on top of the other 3 benefits.

However, what we have done is make an addendum statement to the Innate Ability text to indicate that the sorcerer may, once they receive this ability, choose to take any of the Spell-Like Ability Metamagic feats such as Empower and Quicken Spell-Like Ability from the Monster Manual.

Gypsy: The evil eye gets more powerful from 9th level to 17th level. But the duration goes from 24 hours to 8 hours. Was this planned, or an oversight.

Good Spot Check!
I had originally planned it this way as a balance factor to the power increase.
Though the more I look at it the more I am thinking of reducing the 9th level to the same time frame of 1 hour per 2 levels. The idea is that it needs to strike a balance between combat effectiveness and the role-play aspect of Evil Eye. In most cases an Evil Eye ability is used to curse a target, to then let the target get themselves into situations that will punish them (thus the vast range of reduction). However, it can be used as a directed combat tool (which is what the Hexblade is based upon). The RP aspect would push the 1 day idea, while as a combat tool anything more than 1 minutes is basically worthless since the idea is your opponent is dead by that time.

I dont think it should have an influence against foes of similar power. At the most it should be something that protected against trivial magic (like lower level enemies multiclass spellcasters and spellcasters like paladins, rangers and many prestige classes). A SR of 25 will be a good defense against these whom would have a caster level of 10 or lower, meaning 75 % of their stuff wont work. The ability will also be great when attacked my multiple lesser foes, a quite common situation in my games.

I can concede to this argument and the more I think on it I agree that since it is being added as a small piece of a greater ability that it should be effective but not a Primary Effect ability. Thus a reduction to SR 25 is in order.

But turning undead is hardly as usable as metamagic for free. Its a mechanic that only comes into play at certain times, determined by the dm. Metamagic would be used multiple times at each gaming session. The sorcerer already can do so much in a day, no need to improve in that departement.

This isn’t entirely true. A Cleric can take a MetaChanneling feat such as Divine Power just as the sorcerer is getting a Metamagic feat which makes their channeling much more effective and useable. Also as noted below, using the 3+CHA mod. mechanic is a good balance point for granting abilities that drive off of Charisma, which the sorcerer needs. On metamagic and a few other abilities it is based just on Cha Mod while others use 3+Cha if they are seen as weaker powers.

The higher level version of the ability will be restricted to 3/day as the original rule.

Yes i guessed as much. For the Hexblade, whom is a so and so fighter and even worse spellcaster, it is a defining ability. It is litteraly what makes him even with other classes. Without his curses he is like a multiclass fighter/sorcerer, only worse. For the gypsy it is an ability stacked on an already formidable spellcaster, whom with this ability insures that the target WILL not save against that vital save or die follow up spell.
As the sorcerer will likely have a far better charisma score than the hexblade (whos has to have respectable str, dex and con) her curses will have higher save DC and she will be able to use them more times per day than the hexblade.
In fact my problem with both the SR and the curses are the same. You have sviped some great class abilities from other classes and stacked them on a class that does not need such a power boost.
In my opinion you should not be looking at giving much more out powerwise, probably less even, but rather at smaller things like the UA magisters Aspect of power. Things that make sorceres weird, creepy or noticable, in short to stand out from the crowd.
The augury thing, for instance, is a very good idea. Fitting, a bit weird and not much of a powerboost (but should be a fixed number of times/day, maybe incresing slightly with levels).
I also liked the smite evil and the follow up stacking with a spell power.

I am not seeking mega-power increase, but am seeking powers that are both a Flavor Match to the lineage as well as reasonably balanced to the level at which they are gained. A class should not be first gaining say Evil Eye at a -2 penalty at 17th level – it would be worthless. The evil eye/curse is a Key ability to the Gypsy flavor. As for taking from other classes, I have done that as much as possible to stick to abilities that have already been written versus making things up. What I may do here is reduce the curse to -2/-4 rather than -3/-6 which will leave the Hexblade as the better in this arena – that or look at making Evil Eye a “Bestow Curse” Spell-Like Ability.

Now the issue here is that even as is...
Evil Eye (Sp):
Use: A number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Cast Time: 1 standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Range: The target must be visible to the sorcerer and within 60’.
Duration: 1 hour per 2 sorcerer levels.
Effect: Take a –2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks and weapon damage rolls. Multiple evil-eye effects do not stack. At 17th level the penalty applied to the target increase to –4.
Saves:A successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ their sorcerer level + sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect.

Compared to:

Bestow Curse (Sp):
Use: A number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Cast Time: 1 standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Range: Would have to change to allow 60' visual contact.
Duration: Permanent.
Effect: Choose 1:
* –6 penalty to an Ability Score
* –4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.
* Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.
* You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.
* The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell.
Saves:A successful Will save (DC 14 + sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect.

Which is worse? Which is better? The more I look at it, the more I like the Bestow Curse option better. At 17th level simply make it harder to resist.


As for fixed number of times per day, I am not entirely sure I agree. In most classes this works because they have primary stats that grant a variety of bonuses. Charisma grants nothing more than an effect on spellcasting. The class should have other abilities that gain a benefit from their Charisma.

As for “Aspect of Power” – do you mean Arcana Unearthed not UA? If so this will have to wait till I get access to the book again (I don’t have it with me) to check what you mean.


So the updated GENERALIST ability would look like this.

GENERALIST
Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with magic grows over time.
.....At 9th level the sorcerer gains the Spontaneous Metamagic ability.
Spontaneous Metamagic (Ex): Choose one metamagic feat of choice from either: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any spell the sorcerer knows, three times per day. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher level spell slot.
.....At 17th level the sorcerer gains the Spontaneous Metamagic ability again. A chosen virtual feat may be chosen again, gaining an additional three uses per day of the virtual feat.
.....At 20th level, a general sorcerer becomes a magical creature gaining the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation usually to the hair, skin or eyes, such as a coloration not normal to their species or perhaps a definitive streak of off-color hair or even a mystical tattoo-like symbol. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the general sorcerer gains the following benefits.
• Darkvision out to 60’.
• Gain Spell Resistance (Su): Grants spell resistance 25.
• Gain Damage Reduction (Su): Grants damage reduction 10/magic, which allows them to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a non-magical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction.
• Gain the Spontaneous Metamagic ability again. A chosen virtual feat may be chosen again, gaining an additional three uses per day of the virtual feat.
.....Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.

PS: Ideas for a different term for the "Generalist" lineage would be appreciated.

Some Ideas = Mixed Lineage, Undetailed Lineage, Unknown Lineage, Universal Lineage, Generic Lineage, Hybrid Lineage, Crossed Lineage, Mongrel Lineage, Diverse Lineage....



The updated GYPSY ability would look like this.
Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with gypsy magic grows over time.
.....At 9th level the gypsy sorcerer learns the ancient gypsy way of the evil eye, which is a Charisma based spell-like ability gifted to true gypsies. A number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier, the gypsy sorcerer may curse a target as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The target must be visible to the sorcerer and within 60’. In all other respects the ability functions as the bestow curse spell. A Will save (DC 14 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect.
.....At 17th level the gypsy sorcerer’s ability to use their evil eye ability grows in strength making it harder to resist. The Will save to negate increases to DC 18 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
.....At 20th level, a gypsy sorcerer becomes a magical creature gaining the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation usually to the hair, skin or eyes, such as a coloration not normal to their species or perhaps a definitive streak of off-color hair or even a mystical tattoo-like symbol or some other symbol of prestige in the gypsy’s culture. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the gypsy sorcerer gains the following benefits.
• Darkvision out to 60’.
• Gain True Curse (Sp): Once per day the gypsy sorcerer may bestow a true curse on an individual as a standard action. Victims so afflicted must succeed a Will save (DC 19 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) to negate the effect. A failed saving throw results in the curse holding and lasts until the recipient receives a wish, or miracle. The effects the gypsy may bestow with this curse are: bestow curse, confusion, contagion, feeblemind, insanity, emotion, poison, or baleful polymorph.
• Gain Gypsy Sight (Sp): The gypsy sorcerer gains the ability to use legend lore as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. As this is a true spell-like ability, no foci or material components are required to use this ability.
• Gain Timeless Body (Ex): The gypsy sorcerer no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties they may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the gypsy sorcerer still dies of old age when their time is up.
.....Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.

 

[pyk]

While we all thank you for your input and comments, most of what you say here has been hashed out and discussed ad nauseum in the previous 300+ posts so I am not going to attempt to rehash it here. If you would really like to understand the logic to this build, and as to why it is seen as balanced by the many fans of the build, please go check the previous threads.

However, in saying that, please take it with a grain of salt especially if you are a Core Purist? in which case I would save you the time and effort because you will never be swayed to believe that the Sorcerer is THE weakest class in the game mechanics-wise and design-wise, or that bringing in ideas from Unearthed Arcana is a good idea.

Which is funny, because everyone believes their favorite class is THE weakest class, and tries to think of ways to ADD power to it, instead of swapping out some key abilities.

Unprepared casting is THE strongest ability in the mechanics, hands down. Ever wonder why the Bard doesn't get as many spells known, spells per day, or access to as many spells on the list? No, probably not. Probably just think that the Bard gets it so much better thab the poor Sorcerer because they get the unprepped casting and all those other things, too.

Seriously, anyone who believes the Sorcerer is the weakest, just doesn't play it well. Same with the Fighter, the Ranger, Barbarian, Bard, etc. ad nauseum.

But, I've had my say, I knew when I said it no one would listen, because that's the way it is on these boards. Good luck on your extreme powerhouse.

 

[Khaalis]

Which is funny, because everyone believes their favorite class is THE weakest class {snip}
But, I've had my say, I knew when I said it no one would listen, because that's the way it is on these boards. Good luck on your extreme powerhouse.

And that is your Opinion and you are entitled to it. Thank you for sharing it.

You are of the 51.16% that believe the Sorcerer is balanced and should be left alone, and thats nice for you - enjoy playing it. This thread however, is aimed at the 48.84% that don’t.

As for your opinion of what my favorite class is, I shall just say, simply, that you are quite, absolutely... wrong. I will say nothing further on this topic.


NOTICE: I would also Kindly ask that people please refrain from insulting myself or any of the other contributors here by saying that anyone doesn’t know how to play; that anyone is stupid for having our opinions; or any other inflammatory, insulting or discriminatory remark. Any such comments will be reported to the moderators as troll post violations.

Opinions are like @$$holes. We all have one, and no one person’s is better than another's.

Let's get back on topic please. Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[Stalker0]

Khaalis, I think we're definately moving in teh right direction.

The more I think about it, the more I like the lineages main abilities being sp-like ablities. It goes with the sorc, you know they will be useful as he is a spellcaster, and we can predict how they might be used.

On the generalist: I think going with the 3/day option was the right call, in the end basing it on charisma could get very abusive. One thing I still want to object to is not having a cap on heighten spell. I think we should say max dc +1, so it fits as a +1 metamagic like the others. Otherwise, its so much stronger than the others. As far balance goes, a +1 to dc 3 times per day for free is great, and it works for a lot of spells where extending or enlarging just wouldn't be right. If the group feels this is too weak, than how about +2? But still I do feel a cap is needed.

Thinking about it, why do we need to make a sorc an outsider at 20th level? Why don't we just give him his latest abilities and call it a day. Why go through the trouble of it when its not really needed?

Also, I don't really like giving the sorc SR. SR is for anticaster classes, imo, like the monk... not for the sorc. And it doesn't fit the flavor imo as well, I'm so connected to magic... that now I can a natural resistance to it, that I actually have to turn off when I want spells cast on me? Doesn't feel right to me. How about allowing a virtual feat of +2 at this level. Then you get into the realm of empowers and such, which is very very strong, but at 20th level its the kind of power I expect. Or how about quicken spell 1/day? Basically, the sorc is so in touch with his magic he can throw a spell at a whim for free. Quicken for free is very nice (just look at how much one one of those quicken rods costs). Now, I need people's opinion on the power of this abilitiy, what if it was quicken just once a day, but on a spell of any duration. You could cast a spell with a one minute casting time in 1 round. Would that be completely abusive, or if we still limited quicken to just 5th level spells or lower would it help?

On to the gypsy: I like the curse change. It fits in with the gypsy nicely. I think we should also limit the ability to 3/day though. The sorc is already using their cha again in that it helps the save on the curse, I think that's enough. Also, again i don't think we need to change the sorc to an outsider. The true curse, and legend lore is very nice, timeless body is good flavor, I would be willing to go the distance for those. However, true curse's wording is a little weird, poison has an instantaneous duration but the effect says it doesn't wear off without a miracle. That can get confusing to some people and needs to be clarified.

 

[pyk]

You are of the 51.16% that believe the Sorcerer is balanced and should be left alone, and thats nice for you - enjoy playing it. This thread however, is aimed at the 48.84% that don?t.

As for your opinion of what my favorite class is, I shall just say, simply, that you are quite, absolutely... wrong. I will say nothing further on this topic.

Again, typical response.

No problem, however, as I knew before responding I would, incorrectly, be labeled as a troll.

Good day, and good bye.

 

[Coredump]

Well, I hope this is a wasted response, since I hope Pyk actually does stay gone, but...

Pyk was not labeled a troll for believing the sorc was fine powerwise as is. As Khaalis pointed out, about half the folks think that. The problem is when people start insulting others playing ability. And then state that just because others do not agree with him, they must be closed minded, etc.

IME, Khaalis has been very open to suggestions, and has made many changes. Here and elsewhere, he has gone to great lengths to be helpful, and stress that his opinions are opinions, and not try and tread on others. Khaalis tried to get Pyk to re-read the previous posts to understand what was being done. IMO, Pyk was just trying to pick a fight, and was offering little in the way of constructive input. There is *plenty* of evidence of others offering changes, and being readily accepted. Too bad Pyk was unable to follow suit.

 

[maggot]

I agree with pyk that the sorcerer does not need the tremendous power boost you are giving it. Maybe we should start another thread that creates an alternate sorcerer that conforms to 3.5's flavor but does not increase the overall power.

Unfortunately, I don't have any immediate ideas. Maybe take this version and tone it down?

 

[Tuzenbach]

Khaalis,

I was wondering if you read my idea about how Sorcerers could potentially learn new spells. It's located here:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78349

I figured that of all people you'd be the first to comment, but alas! LoL

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with pyk that the sorcerer does not need the tremendous power boost you are giving it. Maybe we should start another thread that creates an alternate sorcerer that conforms to 3.5's flavor but does not increase the overall power.

Unfortunately, I don't have any immediate ideas. Maybe take this version and tone it down?

Right now we are trying to create a sorc that has both flavor, difference from other classes, and has a progression that makes people want to take him till 20th level. That's not easy to do without something.

While I agree there may be power tweaks to make, it is very hard to make a class seem like something when you don't give them something.

 

[Khaalis]

Firstly – thank you all for the continued input and aid in this project, and for not letting the thread get side-tracked.

Personal Note: I feel that I need to pipe in with an editorial reminder at this point. This editorial is meant be rhetoric and not meant for a side-track conversation. This is just to help people remember why I wrote the mission statement found at the top of the page.

I will say that I DO agree with the assessment that this sorcerer is a boost in power over the original class. I never said that it wasn’t. However, I think it is an acceptable boost in power, and something that the class desperately needs to bring it in line with the other classes such as Druid, Monk, Cleric, Rogue, etc.

I find that most people who like the sorcerer as-is are those that exist within the Low-Power/Low-Magic D&D Culture. That’s Great… IF that’s your cup of tea. I personally do not like that style of game and I am truly sick-and-tired of being told that if I don’t like that style of game that I don’t know how to play D&D. I prefer a higher power, higher magic game. D&D to me should be about epic heroes doing epic things and about magic. To me - what is fantasy without magic? If I want to be just like every other schlub in the world – I’d play Me, or if I wanted to play in a low/no-magic game I would play something that doesn’t involve magic or has incredible little, like Swashbuckling Adventures or Shadowrun or RoleMaster.

With that said, in a Low-Power/Low-Magic Game, where magic items are incredibly rare, Wizards can’t find a spell scroll or spell book to save their lives, etc… Then yes the sorcerer’s 1 extra spell per day over a specialist wizard comes in handy. However I STILL don’t see it as being mega powerful. I also do not see where a Sorcerer’s Spontaneous Casting is the most powerful ability in the game when they can only choose between 4 spells in a given level – especially if those 4 spells are all geared toward one specific event (99% of the time – combat). A well played wizard will never be caught without a necessary spell of choice, whether that be by being prepared ahead of time for the encounter or through their given 1st level Class Ability of Scribe Scroll. In a low magic game where no one is prepared for magic, then a sorcerer has a small advantage when in its limited environment, but a Wizard rules in all environments. The wizard who can blast enemies on the field of battle as well as open the enemies front door and find out where the princess is being held and make traveling great distances easy and buff the fighter and so many other things that the sorcerer 99% of the time cant do is, in my book, the more powerful of the two.

In my opinion the Sorcerer lags behind almost every other class in both power and versatility. To this day I would still choose a Rogue or Rogue/Non-Caster Multiclass any day, hands down over the core Sorcerer. Of all the spellcasting classes Druid and Cleric are on the top of the power pile if nothing else than for sheer power of versatility – at least until you reach the high teen levels, when a wizard can finally begin to shine. Now, if you place the core sorcerer into a Medium to High power/magic game such as the Core Realms – the sorcerer is most definitely weak when compared to the other classes. More often than not, unless you exist in a hack-and-slash campaign, the Sorcerer gets left standing around with little to add to the group other than in an RP aspect.

On a personal opinion of editorial evaluation of class construction… Any class that is 100% of the time better to drop and choose a PrC – is not well designed nor is it balanced. In the core rules there is not one mechanics reason that a Sorcerer should not PrC out immediately to any class they can that has the “+1 level of caster” mechanic. That is a poorly written class, especially since the core material and the designers say that any Multiclassing choice should be difficult to make.
Personal Note Ended:


Now… On to the mass replies.

Khaalis, I think we're definately moving in the right direction.

I hope so.

The more I think about it, the more I like the lineages main abilities being sp-like ablities. It goes with the sorc, you know they will be useful as he is a spellcaster, and we can predict how they might be used.

In most cases I agree, but not all. Supernatural abilities and even some Extraordinary abilities are much more fitting for some of the lineages. Some spell-like abilities are too key-holed or too stereotypical to apply when something a bit more generic can be applied. We shall see as we get farther along.

On the generalist: I think going with the 3/day option was the right call, in the end basing it on charisma could get very abusive. One thing I still want to object to is not having a cap on heighten spell. I think we should say max dc +1, so it fits as a +1 metamagic like the others. Otherwise, its so much stronger than the others. As far balance goes, a +1 to dc 3 times per day for free is great, and it works for a lot of spells where extending or enlarging just wouldn't be right. If the group feels this is too weak, than how about +2? But still I do feel a cap is needed.

On the metamagic use, I think the 3+Cha for the 1st level ability is fine. It is limited enough that even if they can do it 7 times a day (that’s a 24 CHA) it wont break anything. For the higher level abilities the power is less restricted so tightening the control on uses per day is an equal balance.

As for the Heighten Spell, this is how the “Daily Uses” ability is defined in Unearthed Arcana. The cap is built into the function of the feat in that you can only heighten the spell to the maximum spell level you can cast. All heighten spell does is effect the Save DC and for overcoming specific spell level resistance like Globes of Invulnerability. I think that burning a metamagic feat is a fair deal to gain this bonus which is why it was written as it is in the original ability.

If others disagree strongly enough, we can always remove the Heighten Spell from the 1st level list of options.

Thinking about it, why do we need to make a sorc an outsider at 20th level? Why don't we just give him his latest abilities and call it a day. Why go through the trouble of it when its not really needed?

Its not a matter of “need”. It is a matter of giving them an ability worthy of staying in the class to 20th level, and 9th level spells don’t cut it since they get those at 18th level. I have yet to see an equivalent suggestion made for a power to be granted at 20th level that would inspire anyone to stay in the class to 20th to bother receiving it. Of the core abilities, the Monk’s Perfect Self is the most fitting for a sorcerer, though not all get “outsider” – as some get other “Types and Subtypes” appropriate to their lineage. It is a factor of being a magical transformation – the sorcerer becoming one with the magic within them. For the “outsider” the addition of immunity to “humanoid” spells, darkvision, and DR, is a very nice 20th level ability, and it also adds a nice RP related special restriction that they can be affected by “outsider” spells.

Also, I don't really like giving the sorc SR. SR is for anticaster classes, imo, like the monk... not for the sorc. And it doesn't fit the flavor imo as well, I'm so connected to magic... that now I can a natural resistance to it, that I actually have to turn off when I want spells cast on me? Doesn't feel right to me.

This actually kind of baffles me. Why do you not see it as appropriate? 90% of the beings that have SR also have Spell-Like Abilities and or outright spells… Including the Monk. The premise is that the stronger the sorcerer’s magic grows, the less effected he is by low end magic. Think of it this way. The sorcerer’s magic use is like the immune system. The more you are exposed to a toxin, the more resistance you build up to that substance – sometimes even building an outright immunity. Same thing with the Sorcerer’s magic. The more magic they channel, the more magic they build up within themselves, the more resistant they become to magic from without. Or think of it this way – the sorcerers internal powerhouse of magical energy is so strong that it nullifies lesser magics. This is what SR is. Otherwise the 90 something % of the creatures in existence of the game don’t make sense.

How about allowing a virtual feat of +2 at this level. Then you get into the realm of empowers and such, which is very very strong, but at 20th level its the kind of power I expect. Or how about quicken spell 1/day? Basically, the sorc is so in touch with his magic he can throw a spell at a whim for free. Quicken for free is very nice (just look at how much one one of those quicken rods costs). Now, I need people's opinion on the power of this abilitiy, what if it was quicken just once a day, but on a spell of any duration. You could cast a spell with a one minute casting time in 1 round. Would that be completely abusive, or if we still limited quicken to just 5th level spells or lower would it help?

Ok. The +2 level metamagic is not a bad idea. This would be another growth in the metamagic at this stage and makes sense but isn’t silly like Maximize.

As for Quicken, I just don’t know. I am not a fan of the Quicken for the Sorcerer. Yes it makes much logical sense etc, but its already enough that they don’t have to spend a full-round action to use these metamagic feats, but to also give Quicken? Hmm… quicken is a Very powerful effect. I Might allow giving Quicken Spell-Like as a class ability. Quicken spell was prevented on Sorcerers for a reason, mostly because they are already “technically” casting quickened spells.

As for your power suggestion, using quicken on anything with a casting time over one round is too much, and it definitely needs to keep the 5th level spell limit.
Keep in mind that Quicken is reducing a 6 second cast time to 1 second. Your proposal would allow a 10 minute (600 seconds) cast time reduction to 6 seconds – that’s a HUGE benefit!

On to the gypsy: I like the curse change. It fits in with the gypsy nicely. I think we should also limit the ability to 3/day though. The sorc is already using their cha again in that it helps the save on the curse, I think that's enough.

As this is a 9th level ability and not a 1st level ability I think I can agree on the 3/day uses since it is a beefy ability unlike Augury. However to balance the growth from 9th to 17th, I will do this.

.....At 9th level the gypsy sorcerer learns the ancient gypsy way of the evil eye, which is a Charisma based spell-like ability gifted to true gypsies. Three times per day, the gypsy sorcerer may curse a target as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The target must be visible to the sorcerer and within 60’. In all other respects the ability functions as the bestow curse spell. A Will save (DC 14 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect.
.....At 17th level the gypsy sorcerer’s ability to use their evil eye ability grows in frequency to five times per day. It also grows in strength making it harder to resist. The Will save to negate increases to DC 18 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.

Also, again i don't think we need to change the sorc to an outsider. The true curse, and legend lore is very nice, timeless body is good flavor, I would be willing to go the distance for those. However, true curse's wording is a little weird, poison has an instantaneous duration but the effect says it doesn't wear off without a miracle. That can get confusing to some people and needs to be clarified.

See the above discussion on the transmutation.

As for Poison, yes the duration is ”Instant (see text)” ...
Text: “The poison deals 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage immediately and another 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage 1 minute later.”

By assigning it as a True Curse, it functions as the spell normally but has a harder resist DC and cannot be stopped from taking its secondary effected by spells such as Neutralize Poison etc.

I agree with pyk that the sorcerer does not need the tremendous power boost you are giving it. Maybe we should start another thread that creates an alternate sorcerer that conforms to 3.5's flavor but does not increase the overall power.
Unfortunately, I don't have any immediate ideas. Maybe take this version and tone it down?

If you like, feel free to start another thread. You will not have been the 1st nor the last.
I would be more than happy to strip this down for a low-magic campaign setting in another thread. However you will basically wind up with being back to Monte’s Sorcerer.

Khaalis,
I was wondering if you read my idea about how Sorcerers could potentially learn new spells. It's located here:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78349
I figured that of all people you'd be the first to comment, but alas! LoL

Sorry Tuzenbach. I promise to check this out and reply ASAP. I have been very under the weather from chemotherapy treatments so my time on the boards has been limited so I haven’t been paying as much attention to other threads I would normally like.