Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 3)
- Thread starter Khaalis
- Start date
Coredump said:
What do you mean looked the same... same as when? Lost me on this one. Maybe I just need sleep.
Edit: Never mind - I think I see what you mean. The levels (1,2,5,8,11,14,17, 20) ended up being the final landing point?
Halma - Blooded might be in the right direction, might need to be a bit more descriptive since we are saying all sorcerers are blooded (technically), just the generic sorcerer doesnt know what they lineage is (or its too mixed to tell).
Last edited:
Stalker0 said:
As with any ability based on a spell, the abilities restrictions/functionality override the spell's. Thus instead of casting time 10 min. it would be a standard action, but instead of being unlimited distance, the victim must be within 60' in line-of-sight.
Celestial & Fiendish Lineages added to Post #2 (page 1).
Is this thread now mostly down to just the 2 of us posting?
If so I fear that it is near its death...
That or everyone else likes what there is and has no comments?
Last edited:
Khaalis said:As with any ability based on a spell, the abilities restrictions/functionality override the spell's. Thus instead of casting time 10 min. it would be a standard action, but instead of being unlimited distance, the victim must be within 60' in line-of-sight.
Celestial & Fiendish Lineages added to Post #2 (page 1).
Is this thread now mostly down to just the 2 of us posting?
If so I fear that it is near its death...
That or everyone else likes what there is and has no comments?
Nah I don't think its dead, people pipe in on occasion, but remember many people have said they are actively keeping up with the postings, so they are still watching.
As for the nightmare thing, see I didn't even know that am I am pretty up on teh rules. A normal person might not have a clue about that, so I think if you want to include what you said above there in the description I think it would help clarify.
Okay on to the new stuff: I like the -2 to saves and such as a restriction, good flavor, makes sense I like it. I think there should be a clause that if the sorc atones they can start taking sorc levels again. However, the whole half-template thing seemed confusing and clunky to me, I don't think we need it.
The prot from evil abilty seems balanced, seems to work.... but I just don't like it. Its a nice ability don't get me wrong, but one part of it just covers up the innate weakness of the sorc (his -2 to saves against evil and such). Now I agree that it does far more than that, but I don't like how it works against everything, and it doesn't have that wow factor. The gypsy curse was wowing, I thought that fit right in with the gypsy idea and I could see it in character. This doesn't really strike me.
The idea of spell smiting was brought up a while back. Basically, a number of times per day equal to the charisma mod, you can increase your caster level by 1 with spells against evil creatures- or perhaps some other benefit to your spells against evil creatures... or perhaps some extra benefit when casting on good creatures. I really liked that idea, that seemed very cool, but not too overpowering (+1 caster level is nice, but for most spells at most one caster level its another 1d6 or 1d8, or another target,nice but not a huge power increase).
I have mixed feelings about teh detect evil ability. On the one hand, we are giving the sorc some preety good restrictions up front, so it doesn't feel overpowering. On the other, I don't like just copying the paladin's abiltity out of the box, especially since the pally has a much harsher code than simply being good.
As a final note, I think we should say that a sorc choosing this lineage should pick a patron diety. That way when they use spells like lesser planar ally, the dm can say it came from this god or whatever, it just prevents little arcane vs divine inconsistences.
I had a thought, normally you can't multiclass into cleric twice and get different domains, but would that really be a problem for this sorc? Basically taking it once for gypsy lineage, and again for celestial? I kind of like the idea, its another way to customize the sorc, and if someone wants to go the whole many many low level spells with a few lineage abilities, I don't really see a problem with it.
Bihor
First Post
I like the idea of making the sorcerer different than the wizard and get rid of the stupid familiar. That only maked then wizards clone.
And I'm suprised to see so many people offended when you say that the sorcerer is less powerfull than the wizard.
You ideas are like those in a article in Dragon in 2001 by Geoffrey McVey. Ther was 5 suggestion of path to choose (Experimentation, Fey-touched, magical pacts, dragon ancestry and the forgoten crafts) but they where only suggestions for feat and spells to take at the first level.
The UNKNOWN LINEAGE could be from magical experimantation that some one made on de PC when he was young. He is now covered with tattoos of arcane.
I'd call it the Arcane Blooded or the Magic touched.
And I'm suprised to see so many people offended when you say that the sorcerer is less powerfull than the wizard.
You ideas are like those in a article in Dragon in 2001 by Geoffrey McVey. Ther was 5 suggestion of path to choose (Experimentation, Fey-touched, magical pacts, dragon ancestry and the forgoten crafts) but they where only suggestions for feat and spells to take at the first level.
The UNKNOWN LINEAGE could be from magical experimantation that some one made on de PC when he was young. He is now covered with tattoos of arcane.
I'd call it the Arcane Blooded or the Magic touched.
Try keeping track of the number of views for the thread. I keep reading, but rarely post. But here are some observations
Your lineage abilities listed with the lineages happen 9/15/20, the class says 8/14/20
You get a lineage ability at 1st, and then not until 8th. What about getting detect evil (or whatever) once per level per day, to a maximum of CHA+3. Or even twice/level/day to max CHA+3. Gives some nice things each level.
Same could be done for the other lineage abilities. At 8th get prot evil 3/day, get 2 additional uses each level to a max of CHA+3. Or something like that. To me, it is fun getting stuff each level.
Celestial:
Celestrial language, and knowledges: If the bloodline is from 'far in the past', and is just manafesting now; why would my character automatically get the language? Especially if I am multiclassing into the class. The only logic for that is if my family speaks celestrial, etc. I guess the knowledges might make sense, since the bloodline makes me more 'attuned' to those knowledges.
Spells; you may want to state that it is any good/light *arcane* spells. Unless you wanted to include cleric spells. (I mean aside from the listed domain spells.)
Prohibited spells: I assume you mean if they learn a prohibited spell from any class they can no longer advance as a sorcerer. (from multi classing or PrC) Also, does this thwart getting "+1 spell caster lever" gained from a PrC? I assume so, but both things may benefit from being stated.
Bloodline PrC: Not sure if I understand this, nor the logic behind it. It seems more 'logical' to say it just can't be done. But what if I am an elf with a celestrial heritage. I start as a Celestial sorcerer, and PrC into a class requiring 'elfblood'. Is that prohibited?
I can understand that you don't want to have 1/2 everythings, but I would just make things impossible, otherwise it doesn't make sense to me. ('Course, it may just be an accepted game mechanic....)
I have not looked at fiendish yet..
Thanks for all this work.
Your lineage abilities listed with the lineages happen 9/15/20, the class says 8/14/20
You get a lineage ability at 1st, and then not until 8th. What about getting detect evil (or whatever) once per level per day, to a maximum of CHA+3. Or even twice/level/day to max CHA+3. Gives some nice things each level.
Same could be done for the other lineage abilities. At 8th get prot evil 3/day, get 2 additional uses each level to a max of CHA+3. Or something like that. To me, it is fun getting stuff each level.
Celestial:
Celestrial language, and knowledges: If the bloodline is from 'far in the past', and is just manafesting now; why would my character automatically get the language? Especially if I am multiclassing into the class. The only logic for that is if my family speaks celestrial, etc. I guess the knowledges might make sense, since the bloodline makes me more 'attuned' to those knowledges.
Spells; you may want to state that it is any good/light *arcane* spells. Unless you wanted to include cleric spells. (I mean aside from the listed domain spells.)
Prohibited spells: I assume you mean if they learn a prohibited spell from any class they can no longer advance as a sorcerer. (from multi classing or PrC) Also, does this thwart getting "+1 spell caster lever" gained from a PrC? I assume so, but both things may benefit from being stated.
Bloodline PrC: Not sure if I understand this, nor the logic behind it. It seems more 'logical' to say it just can't be done. But what if I am an elf with a celestrial heritage. I start as a Celestial sorcerer, and PrC into a class requiring 'elfblood'. Is that prohibited?
I can understand that you don't want to have 1/2 everythings, but I would just make things impossible, otherwise it doesn't make sense to me. ('Course, it may just be an accepted game mechanic....)
I have not looked at fiendish yet..
Thanks for all this work.
fuindordm
Adventurer
Still following the thread, yes.
I'm starting to feel like it's at the point where I would be comfortable importing it, but the specific lineage domains and abilities would have to be tweaked for my own campaign.
For example, while the Gypsy lineage is very cool I'd prefer to tie it to an outsider bloodline and give them a domain with spells related to the plane of Shadow (since the gypsy-like culture IMC also breeds shadowdancers).
Variety is good! The Celestial lineage right now suffers from mild redundancy in that prot. from evil can be taken as a spell at any time, but will eventually get superceded. If the domain offers a lot of spells of one type, then the lineage abliities would be more fun if they offered a very different take on the bloodline.
I'm enjoying seeing the details come together.
--Ben
I'm starting to feel like it's at the point where I would be comfortable importing it, but the specific lineage domains and abilities would have to be tweaked for my own campaign.
For example, while the Gypsy lineage is very cool I'd prefer to tie it to an outsider bloodline and give them a domain with spells related to the plane of Shadow (since the gypsy-like culture IMC also breeds shadowdancers).
Variety is good! The Celestial lineage right now suffers from mild redundancy in that prot. from evil can be taken as a spell at any time, but will eventually get superceded. If the domain offers a lot of spells of one type, then the lineage abliities would be more fun if they offered a very different take on the bloodline.
I'm enjoying seeing the details come together.
--Ben
Bihor said:
That's a winner! This whole time I was thinking a "basic" sorcerer should be of dragon lineage, but the general lineage was already laid out. I'd say change the general lineage to OBSCURED LINEAGE. It is obscured by generations of intermingled bloodlines or magical experiments. We should create the DRAGON LINEAGE and make it the base lineage for this sorcerer remake. After all, that is what the original Sorcerer class was billed as - "Dragon Blooded".
Last edited:
First let me say thank you to everyone for posting and letting me know the project is not in vain. With my current life issues, its just good to know that this isn’t just medicinal for myself but that it is also going to a good end.
Now on to the MASS REPLY
Old Stuff…
New Stuff…Celestial & Fiendish
On Basics:
“As the sorcerer’s power awaken within them, in those original days of chaotic magic release and uncontrolled powers, so to does a strange awareness. As the sorcerer becomes more attune to the magical energy within themselves, they become more aware of ancestral connection or source to that power. From that connection, they begin to unlock the secrets of that lineage.”
Or something along that line. Forgive me but my flavor writing isn’t up to par right now.
If you have an example of how to say that, it would be appreciated. I have simply used the PHB text for this. No core class mentions PrC’s. However you are correct on the PrC “+1 caster level” – once you are banned from gaining in the class it is permanent – just as with a Cleric or Druid.
On Other Restrictions:
As for the Elven reference, that works fine because the PrC specifically states it is based on having Elven Blood. Which you do. What it does NOT do is try to turn you INTO an elf. For example an Elf with Celestial lineage could not then go and take a PrC such as the Alienist or Oozemaster or Dragon Desciple as they try to turn you into something entirely different. Does that make more sense?
On Detect Evil/Good:
On Protection - Evil/Good:
Now on to the MASS REPLY
Old Stuff…
So noted and fixed.
Great editing catch – fixed.
There WILL be a Draconic Lineage. It will likely be the next to be posted after we hash out the 2 Outsiders. I don’t want to be doing details on more than 2 new lineages at a time. As for the name of the Unknown/Generic – I think I like “Obscured”. Will think on that. Other thoughts?
This is exactly why I wanted to design it this way, the lineages are just EXAMPLES and base starting points for people to jump off and do their own thing with – just like domains were. This sounds like a very interesting lineage you have – maybe post your ideas?
New Stuff…Celestial & Fiendish
On Basics:
It IS a stretch but this was something many wanted to see. It can be flavor text in this manner.
“As the sorcerer’s power awaken within them, in those original days of chaotic magic release and uncontrolled powers, so to does a strange awareness. As the sorcerer becomes more attune to the magical energy within themselves, they become more aware of ancestral connection or source to that power. From that connection, they begin to unlock the secrets of that lineage.”
Or something along that line. Forgive me but my flavor writing isn’t up to par right now.
I did intent this to mean All spells. If it were limited to arcane spells, granting “good” spells would be practically worthless since 99% of them if not 100% of them are divine. This allows the sorcerer access to the “exotic” spells referenced in the flavor text, but they still remain as “arcane” origin for the sorcerer. Besides, If anyone has the time/energy – a list of all “Good” and “Light” descriptor spells would be nice to see… ::hint hint::
Exactly what I meant. Your inherent lineage is a set restriction across class, just as a Clerical or Druidic Vow or a Barbarian or Bard’s alignment.
If you have an example of how to say that, it would be appreciated. I have simply used the PHB text for this. No core class mentions PrC’s. However you are correct on the PrC “+1 caster level” – once you are banned from gaining in the class it is permanent – just as with a Cleric or Druid.
On Other Restrictions:
The Bloodline PrC is to prevent abuse. How many people already try to abuse the Half-Celestial/Half-Dragon/Lycanthrope Fighter/Rogue….. yada yada.
As for the Elven reference, that works fine because the PrC specifically states it is based on having Elven Blood. Which you do. What it does NOT do is try to turn you INTO an elf. For example an Elf with Celestial lineage could not then go and take a PrC such as the Alienist or Oozemaster or Dragon Desciple as they try to turn you into something entirely different. Does that make more sense?
On Detect Evil/Good:
If the abilities are done correctly they don’t need to be spread over a large number of levels. Don’t forget that the only get “Lineage Specific” abilities at 1,8,14,20 but they also gain other Class Abilities at 2,5,11,17. As for Detect Evil/Good I felt it was the most fitting “generic” ability without picking specific spell-like abilities from One Particular species of outsider. Angels are different than Guardinals, Baatezu are different than Succubi etc.
On Protection - Evil/Good:
Suggestions? There really aren’t that many abilities that are genericcally “Celestial” or “Fiendish” in nature without picking a specific breed…
Only issue here is another new mechanic. This is very similar in effect to a Limited but combined Empower Spell and Extend Spell. I also have to say I don’t necessarily like pin-holing all of the Celestial/Fiendish powers to work ONLY versus Good or Evil creatures. A Celestial Sorcerer’s only restriction is that their bloodline prevents them from being evil (too much “natural goodness”) but it doesn’t necessarily make then crusaders against evil. Detect Evil is a sense born of their ancestral lineage and they could be protected against evil by that lineage, but we shouldn’t assign a Crusader archetype to the lineage.
On this one, I disagree openly. That is what the Divine Receptacle is for. Just because the person carries celestial or fiendish blood does not mean they need to have a patron deity – just as it doesn’t for Aasimars and Half-breeds. As for Planar Ally – planar beings can choose to aid mortals for their own ends not just at the command of a deity.
This, I would have to say would be a house rule for you. I would never allow Multiclassing into the same class twice. It breaks part of the core foundation of a Class/Level based system.
