Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 3)

Khaalis said:
Mass Reply

I don’t have Wheel of Time, so I have no reference there, but I personally am not a big fan of the AU spell mechanic. That’s just a personal note, but I find it to be a bit clunky. I will need to go back and re-read it but if I am remembering correctly off the top of my head, you have basically two tables – a spells known and a spells prepared?
Where do the 1, 2 and 2a options above come from in the AU?

As for flavor sorcerers – I obviously agree. :)
I may take a shot at the Shadow sorcerer. The Psion sorcerer is already covered pretty well.

In AU all spellcasters have a "spells readied" and a "spells per day" table. Spells readied act just like a sorcerer's spells known, except that they can be changed any time the spellcaster has a bit of time to do so. (An hour, I think)

In AU splitting/merging slots like this is called "unraveling" and "weaving". It's somewhere in the magic chapter, since it's something all the spellcasting classes can do.

In D&D you can already use any higher-level slot to cast a lower-level spell; this version is less "wasteful". On the AU boards, I've heard that the largest side-effect is that casters rarely end the day with any spells left at all, since you can usually find a combination of slots that will get you the spell level you need. And the 3:1 ratio to trade up is pretty harsh. A 5th-level caster that is out of 3rd level spells but needs just one more fireball can do it at the cost of 3 1st level spells (= 1 2nd level) and 2 2nd level spells. You won't be able to do much afterwards, though!

If this were a class feature of sorcerers it would go a long way towards making their spellcastinng seem more "free-form" and less formulaic. It obviously wouldn't work for any class that has to prepare spells.

--------------

Here's an attempt at the shadow sorcerer:

Shadow lineage:

Some sorcerers derive their power from a close connection to the plane of Shadow, that connects our own plane to a host of alternate universes. Most people fear shadow sorcerers because they associate powers of darkness with evil and the undead. Such sorcerers are certainly possible; there have been examples in the past of people tainted by an undead bloodline manifesting similar abilities. Most shadow sorcerers, however, are those whose lineage derives from an outsider native to the plane of shadow, or an ancestor with long exposure to this inhospitable realm.

Spell Access: The shadow sorcerer can learn any spell with the darkness or shadow descriptors. They cannot learn spells with the light descriptor.
Lineage gifts: Hide is a class skill, the sorcerer gains low-light vision if they don't already have it.
Lineage Ability: The sorcerer has a particular affinity for shadow and darkness, and can function more effectively therein. Against oppenents with concealment due to natural or magical darkness and shadow, decrease the miss chance by 10%. Oppenents attacking the sorcerer in such conditions suffer a miss chance 10% greater than normal.
Improved Lineage Ability: The benefits specified above double to 20%; the sorcerer therefore suffers no miss chance against opponents in shadowy illumination.
Greater Lineage Ability: Cloak of Shadow. The sorcerer gains the Hide in Plain Sight and Shadow Jump abilities of a 10th level shadowdancer. They seem to absorb light, always appearing more dimly lit than their environment. This unsettling aspect also gives them a +2 circumstance bonus to intimidate checks.
Lineage domain: Cause Fear, Darkness, Deeper Darkness, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Walk, Greater Teleport, Discern Location, Shades.

--Ben
 

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fuindordm said:
In AU splitting/merging slots like this is called "unraveling" and "weaving". It's somewhere in the magic chapter, since it's something all the spellcasting classes can do.

In D&D you can already use any higher-level slot to cast a lower-level spell; this version is less "wasteful". On the AU boards, I've heard that the largest side-effect is that casters rarely end the day with any spells left at all, since you can usually find a combination of slots that will get you the spell level you need. And the 3:1 ratio to trade up is pretty harsh. A 5th-level caster that is out of 3rd level spells but needs just one more fireball can do it at the cost of 3 1st level spells (= 1 2nd level) and 2 2nd level spells. You won't be able to do much afterwards, though!

If this were a class feature of sorcerers it would go a long way towards making their spellcastinng seem more "free-form" and less formulaic. It obviously wouldn't work for any class that has to prepare spells.
The first issue I have with this is that some people, somehow, already think the sorcerer’s Spell Mechanics are too complicated.

On a mechanics note, while this does allow a more free-form casting, I am not sure I like this mechanic as it is.
1) The cost is a bit exorbitant for the gain, especially as you go up in spell levels, as it scales almost exponentially.
A 1st level spell costs 3 0-level spell slots. In spell levels that’s a cost to gain ratio of 1.5:1 (0-level = ½ spell level).
A 2nd level spell costs 3 1st level spell slots. A CtG ratio of 3:2.
A 3rd level spell costs 3 2nd level spell slots. A CtG ratio of 6:3 (3:1)
A 4th level spell costs 3 3rd level spell slots. A CtG ratio of 9:4
A 5th level spell costs 3 4th level spell slots. A CtG ratio of 12:5
A 6th level spell costs 3 5th level spell slots. A CtG ratio of 15:6 (5:2)
A 7th level spell costs 3 6th level spell slots. A CtG ratio of 18:7
A 8th level spell costs 3 7th level spell slots. A CtG ratio of 21:8
A 9th level spell costs 3 8th level spell slots. A CtG ratio of 24:9 (8:3)
2) Worse yet, the Reverse Function, burning a Higher level spell slot to power lower level spells doesn’t even work at the same ratio? It’s a 1:2 ratio. Add insult to injury, and you cant double down spell levels like you can double up them. You can burn 3 0-level spells to make a 1st, to add to 2 other firsts to get a 3rd. However, you cannot use a 2nd level spell to get 2 1st level spells and use one of those 1st level spells to get 2 0-level spells?

Where is the logic in this? Not only is the cost exorbitant, it isn’t even balanced with itself, costing a 3:1 ratio to increase, but only gaining a 2:1 ratio to decrease.

If I were to implement this I would likely do the following, unless someone can convince me of the logic of the mismatched ratio mechanic…

Spell Weaving: Spell-slots can be woven to power lower or higher level spells (if the caster can cast spells of the higher level). This ability may be used at will as a free action, allowing the sorcerer to combine two slots of one level to cast one spell of the next higher level. This process may also be used in the reverse, allowing the sorcerer to sacrifice a spell level in a higher level spell slot to gain two spell slots of the next lower spell level. The new slots act just as any other spell slot, and may be used as any other spell slot of that level including for further spell weavings.

For example, a 6th level sorcerer (with spells per day of 6/6/5/3) chooses to sacrifice two 1st level spells slots for the day to gain an additional 2nd level spell slot for the day, and then also chooses to sacrifice two 2nd level spell slots to gain an additional 3rd level spell slot for the day, ending up with 6/4/4/4 for the day. Later that day the sorcerer finds themselves at 1/0/0/2 and realizes that they really need to cast a Magic Missile to save a fight. They do not have enough 0-level slots to generate a 1st level spell slot and they do not have any 2nd level slots to sacrifice. Instead, they sacrifice a 3rd level spell slot to gain two 2nd level spells, then sacrifice one of those 2nd level spell slots to gain two 1st level spell slots, effectively bringing them to 1/2/1/1.


Here's an attempt at the shadow sorcerer:
Shadow lineage: Some sorcerers derive their power from a close connection to the plane of Shadow, that connects our own plane to a host of alternate universes. Most people fear shadow sorcerers because they associate powers of darkness with evil and the undead. Such sorcerers are certainly possible; there have been examples in the past of people tainted by an undead bloodline manifesting similar abilities. Most shadow sorcerers, however, are those whose lineage derives from an outsider native to the plane of shadow, or an ancestor with long exposure to this inhospitable realm.
Spell Access: The shadow sorcerer can learn any spell with the darkness or shadow descriptors. They cannot learn spells with the light descriptor.
Lineage gifts: Hide is a class skill, the sorcerer gains low-light vision if they don't already have it.
Lineage Ability: The sorcerer has a particular affinity for shadow and darkness, and can function more effectively therein. Against oppenents with concealment due to natural or magical darkness and shadow, decrease the miss chance by 10%. Oppenents attacking the sorcerer in such conditions suffer a miss chance 10% greater than normal.
Improved Lineage Ability: The benefits specified above double to 20%; the sorcerer therefore suffers no miss chance against opponents in shadowy illumination.
Greater Lineage Ability: Cloak of Shadow. The sorcerer gains the Hide in Plain Sight and Shadow Jump abilities of a 10th level shadowdancer. They seem to absorb light, always appearing more dimly lit than their environment. This unsettling aspect also gives them a +2 circumstance bonus to intimidate checks.
Lineage domain: Cause Fear, Darkness, Deeper Darkness, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Walk, Greater Teleport, Discern Location, Shades.

Ok, here is what I would do this, because I agree with Coredump on the abilities. Though interesting and flavorful, the application would be almost useless. I would take some more hints from the Shadowdancer and the Shadow Mind.


SHADOW LINEAGE: Some sorcerers derive their power from a close connection to the plane of Shadow, that connects our own plane to a host of alternate universes. Most people fear shadow sorcerers because they associate shadow with evil and the undead. Such sorcerers are certainly possible as there have been examples in the past of people tainted by an undead bloodline manifesting similar abilities. Most shadow sorcerers, however, are those whose lineage derives from an outsider native to the plane of shadow, or an ancestor with long exposure to this inhospitable realm.

Benefit: Shadow sorcerers gain Hide and Knowledge (Planes) as class skills. They also gain low-light vision if they don't already have it. If the sorcerer already has low-light vision, they may see three times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of shadowy illumination. They may also control shadow, as a spell-like ability, at will. This ability acts as a 0-level spell and lasts for up to one minute per sorcerer level and has a range of 100’ + 10’ per level. The shadow sorcerer controls the shadow cast by anyone or anything with a total area of up to 100 sq. ft. The controlled shadow is like a puppet that parodies imagined actions of the object or creature casting the shadow, even if the subject stands still. The sorcerer can even make the shadow move away from its source, so long as it is cast along a wall or flat surface and remains within range. The shadow sorcerer can also learn any spell with the Darkness or Shadow descriptors.

Special Limitation: A shadow sorcerer is strongly affected by their shadow lineage. They are thus influenced by the shadow in their outlook on the world, seeing light and dark in all things and thus they must be partially neutral. They may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with the Light descriptor or of a radiance based effect, nor that belongs to a Sun, Light or other radiance oriented clerical domain. The sorcerer also cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Due to their strong affinity to magic of shadow and darkness, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of light abd radiance, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the Light descriptor or of a radiance effect or domain, or used by creatures of the angel subtypes. A shadow sorcerer who loses their neutrality or learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer but retains all sorcerer abilities. Also, like a member of any other class, a shadow sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. A shadow sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are not specifically Shadow oriented (for example Half-Dragon), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).

Lineage Spells: The sorcerer has a specific affinity with shadow magic which manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Shadow Lineage spell list.
Shadow Lineage Spell List: 0–ghost sound; 1st-obscuring mist; 2nd-darkness; 3rd-deeper darkness; 4th-shadow conjuration; 5th-shadow evocation; 6th-shadow walk; 7th-plane shift; 8th-screen; 9th-shades

Lineage Ability: The sorcerer’s affinity with their shadow lineage grows over time.
…..At 8th level the sorcerer gains more control of shadows and may create visual illusions from shadow. This spell-like ability’s effects are identical to the spell silent image and may be employed a number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma modifier.
…..At 14th level the shadow sorcerer’s gains the spell-like ability to Shadow Step between shadows as if by the dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. In all other respects this ability functions exactly as the spell. The shadow sorcerer may shadow step a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier.
…..At 20th level, a shadow sorcerer becomes so attune to their inner shadow that they become one with their shadow lineage gaining the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation usually to the hair, skin or eyes, such as deep dark gray to black skin, and grey, white or purple eyes with no pupils. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the shadow sorcerer gains the following benefits.
• Darkvision out to 60’.
• Gain Spell Resistance to Energy (Ex): Grants Spell Resistance 30 against spells of the Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy schools, as well as all spells with the darkness descriptor.
• Gain Damage Reduction (Su): Grants damage reduction 10/magic, which allows them to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a non-magical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction.
• Gain Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadow sorcerer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, they can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. Note that if they use their control shadow ability first, to detach their shadow, they may hide in their own shadow for the duration of the control shadow.
Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.
 
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Khaalis said:
Where is the logic in this? Not only is the cost exorbitant, it isn’t even balanced with itself, costing a 3:1 ratio to increase, but only gaining a 2:1 ratio to decrease.

[QUOTE END]

Thats because you don't rate flexibility very high, actually thats probably the reason you find the sorcerer weak to begin with.

The gain is threefold.

1. You rarely have any spellslots left at the end of the day, unless you want to.

2. If you have used your last 5th level slot but really need that teleport badly you might be able to if you have enough 4th and 3rd level spells left. This ability to use lower level slots to cast higher level spells, even at a high price, is a new ability, and a decent one. Any new ability means more classpower.

3. Even though you gain only 2 lower level spells from a higher, thats still twice as many as you gain right now. As the rules stand a sorcerer can use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell, but only at 1:1 cost.

So you get more flexibility, but if you want to use it it has a price. Fair enough in my opinion.
 

Hi again 'Khaalis':) (one should expect bruch-offs when giving radical opinions to people who have put a lot of work into something. This is something I have observed, not deducted; to be kinda fair (memory faltering, who gives a damn), I remember soapm, jd and pol doing the same; everyone dossit.)
Btw: I detest funky unreal screen names, it makes people behave less responsibly and seems immature to me. What's your real name? Yes- Jens is a proper name hereabouts; if you don't want to put it here, I read email at jenscl@hotmail....

Here's a reason why spell weaving (or whatever it is called) should use different ratios: Otherwise you might as well use spell points. Think about it: If ratios are equal/inverse, you could convert all spell slots into 1st or 0th level slots and just convert back from there as needed. Besides, converting back and forth is usually wasteful (ex: go to a bank and exchange some money to another currency, then change back - see the loss?)

Anyway, if introduced, slot weaving might either be given to all spellcasters, to some, made a feat, etc. I would suggest making it an aspect of spontaneous spellcasting which preparing spellcasters can get access to by taking a feat. This wound oppose Prepared Spellcasting or whatever it's called.

From a long-ago discussion abous psion and powerpoints, I remember the main design reason for low amounts of powerpoints being that otherwise psions could keep using low-level powers all day, and not so much the possible number og high-level powers. Given that, the trade-down factor should be poor while the trade-up factor could be respectable.

For simplicity, I would suggest replacing the 'ratios' with the following rule:
"When braiding or unbraiding spell slots, slot levels are conserved given that the slot(s) gained count at one level higher than they really are." (Eg: The waste is one slot-level when trading up, and one slot-level per slot gained then trading down)
Example: A 6th level slot is unbraided giving either 3*1st since 3(1+1)=6, 4th+0th since (4+1)+(0+1)=6, 3rd+1st, 2*2nd, 0th+1st+2nd, 6*0th, etc.
Examples: Slots of levels 2,3,5 can be traded up for a 2+3+5=9+1 so 9th level slot. 2 4th level slotscan be traded up for an 7th level slot.

Mimicking your table:
A 1st level slot cannot be bouht using 0th level slots since N*0 < 1+1
A 2nd level slot costs 3 1st level slots since 3*1=2+1. Factor 3:2
A 3rd level slot costs 2 2nd level slots since 2*2=3+1. Factor 4:3
A 4th or higher level slot can be gained using 2 slots of one level lower or:
A Nth level slot costs a (N-X)th and a (X+1)th level slot ..or.. a (N-X)th and a (N-Y) and a (X+Y+1)th level slot etc. General factor: (N+1):N where N is the level gained
...
A 9th level slot costs 2*5th, 4th+6th, 3rd+7h, 2nd+8th, 2*1st+9th, 3rd+4th+6th., etc...

When trading down the factor is (N+M):N where N is the level gained and M is the number of lower-level slots.
 

monboesen said:
Thats because you don't rate flexibility very high, actually thats probably the reason you find the sorcerer weak to begin with.
The gain is threefold.
1. You rarely have any spellslots left at the end of the day, unless you want to.
2. If you have used your last 5th level slot but really need that teleport badly you might be able to if you have enough 4th and 3rd level spells left. This ability to use lower level slots to cast higher level spells, even at a high price, is a new ability, and a decent one. Any new ability means more classpower.
3. Even though you gain only 2 lower level spells from a higher, thats still twice as many as you gain right now. As the rules stand a sorcerer can use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell, but only at 1:1 cost.
So you get more flexibility, but if you want to use it it has a price. Fair enough in my opinion.

Setting the incorrect “assumption” of my opinions on flexibility aside, you still haven’t answered my basic question.

I fully realize the mechanic is designed to grant flexibility – which it does…technically. However, the question I asked is “Where is the logic?” not “What is the gain?”

As the mechanic is designed it seems, as you pointed out in Point 1 above, to be set up to be more specifically designed as a Mana (Spell-Slot) sink than for true flexibility. The flexibility is more of an after-effect than the core ideal. However, the problem I have is in the logic of the mechanic as it exists. Not the premise of the mechanic.

You can weave 3 of X level spell to get 1 Y level spell but you can only unravel a Y level spell to get 2 X level spells? Maybe I am thinking of it in too much of a mathematical/programmatic logic way.

As it is designed, the logic states: If 3X=Y Then Y=2X
Huh? Sorry – that makes NO logical sense.

If it takes 3 spells of X level to weave 1 spell of Y level, then 1 spell of Y level should unravel to produce 3 spells of X level.
The cost involved in a power up is still there, burning multiple spells to gain 1. The benefit of sacrificing a higher level spells should equal the cost of acquiring a higher level spell.

Now, there is also the question of Logic behind the stacking.
Why can a caster burn lower level spells to gain higher level spells repeatedly, stacking the effects from spell level to spell level, but they cant sacrifice higher spell levels for lower spell levels more than once?

They can Burn 3 1st level spells to make a 2nd level spell, then use that 2nd level spell with 2 others to make a 3rd level spell, and use that 3rd level spell with 2 others to make a 4th level spells, etc. but when unraveling the caster can only unravel a 4th level spell into 2 3rd level spells but then cant use that 3rd level spell to unravel to get a 2nd? Again – where is the logic in this?

If the caster casts 6/6/6/5/3 normally, by these rules they could burn 3 1st level spells to get a 2nd and then 3 2nd level spells to get a 3rd and 3 3rd level spells to get a 4th bringing them to 6/3/4/3/4.

Why then cant they sacrifice the same way in reverse?
They should be able burn a 4th level to gain 2 3rd levels, then burn a 3rd to get 2 2nd and burn a 2nd to get two 1st bringing them to 6/8/7/6/2.
 

Jens said:
Hi again 'Khaalis' {snip} Btw: I detest funky unreal screen names, it makes people behave less responsibly and seems immature to me. What's your real name? Yes- Jens is a proper name hereabouts; if you don't want to put it here, I read email at jenscl@hotmail
I apologize if you do not like screen names, but the point of screen names is specifically to protect user privacy. However, though it is not “My” name, Khaalis is not a “funky unreal” name. It happens to be a Muslim/Islamic name and is also an Urdu (national language of Pakistan and secondary language to Hindi in India) word meaning “adj. - pure, genuine, sincere (friend)”.

Here's a reason why spell weaving (or whatever it is called) should use different ratios: Otherwise you might as well use spell points. Think about it: If ratios are equal/inverse, you could convert all spell slots into 1st or 0th level slots and just convert back from there as needed. Besides, converting back and forth is usually wasteful (ex: go to a bank and exchange some money to another currency, then change back - see the loss?)
I see the logic you present here against free form stacking, but it should be a universal restriction then. If you can only unravel one spell level down you should only be able to weave one spell level up.
As for the bank example, I see where you are going with it but it’s a bad example. Unless you are trying to say that there is some cosmic power out there that is being “paid” spell energy to allow the weaving/unraveling, it doesn’t really correlate.

From a long-ago discussion abous psion and powerpoints, I remember the main design reason for low amounts of powerpoints being that otherwise psions could keep using low-level powers all day, and not so much the possible number og high-level powers. Given that, the trade-down factor should be poor while the trade-up factor could be respectable.
The only issue here is that the current mechanic as it is has the reverse with a respectable trade down 1:2 ratio, but a poor trade up value 3:1 ratio.


For simplicity, I would suggest replacing the 'ratios' with the following rule:
"When braiding or unbraiding spell slots, slot levels are conserved given that the slot(s) gained count at one level higher than they really are." (Eg: The waste is one slot-level when trading up, and one slot-level per slot gained then trading down)
Example: A 6th level slot is unbraided giving either 3*1st since 3(1+1)=6, 4th+0th since (4+1)+(0+1)=6, 3rd+1st, 2*2nd, 0th+1st+2nd, 6*0th, etc.
Examples: Slots of levels 2,3,5 can be traded up for a 2+3+5=9+1 so 9th level slot. 2 4th level slotscan be traded up for an 7th level slot.

Mimicking your table:
A 1st level slot cannot be bouht using 0th level slots since N*0 < 1+1
A 2nd level slot costs 3 1st level slots since 3*1=2+1. Factor 3:2
A 3rd level slot costs 2 2nd level slots since 2*2=3+1. Factor 4:3
A 4th or higher level slot can be gained using 2 slots of one level lower or:
A Nth level slot costs a (N-X)th and a (X+1)th level slot ..or.. a (N-X)th and a (N-Y) and a (X+Y+1)th level slot etc. General factor: (N+1):N where N is the level gained
...
A 9th level slot costs 2*5th, 4th+6th, 3rd+7h, 2nd+8th, 2*1st+9th, 3rd+4th+6th., etc...

When trading down the factor is (N+M):N where N is the level gained and M is the number of lower-level slots.

Whereas I personally have no issues with mathematic formulas and I like how your work out here, I think this method is a bit too complex for a core system. Keep in mind, as was brought up repeatedly by various posters in an earlier part of the thread, these rules have to be able to be understood by 12 year olds. Your formulaic model above is a bit of complex algebra. I would even hazard to guess that not many people would be willing to deal with the complexity of the math.

With that said there is one part of your equations that are incorrect in foundation because 0-level spells are considered ½-Level in all equations. So it would require 4 0-level spells in your model to trade up to a level 1 spell (N*1/2=1+1, thus N=4). I also noticed one other thing, in the 9th level example, the last entry doesn’t fit (3rd+4th+6th=13). Did you mean 1st+3rd+6th?
 

Khaalis said:
As for the bank example, I see where you are going with it but it?s a bad example. Unless you are trying to say that there is some cosmic power out there that is being ?paid? spell energy to allow the weaving/unraveling, it doesn?t really correlate.
I was trying to say that conversions are almost always wasteful. If you have electrical heating, for example, the electricity you use is probably produced from heat at a powerplant which would have needed to input more energy than you get from your radiator.
 

I doubt if this is helpful, but I think that there are aspects to the Arcana Unearthed magic system that make it different enough from D&D to warrant the weird 'spell weaving' ratios. I could be mistaken about this, though.

It seems that in general AU spells scale better with caster-level than core spells do. This is compounded by the complexity of the spell, too - complex spells scale better that simple spells, and exotic spells scale better than complex spells.

The result is that you could have a 1st or 2nd level spell that would be the absolute best thing to cast in a given situation, but because you decided to weave your lower level magic to fry bad guys all day long, you only have high level slots left, which are essentially useless. The argument is that the AU system tries to simulate finesse being harder than brute force, I guess.

I think that concept was integrated into the AU spell system from the beginning. Unlike the PH system, you don't need a minimum ability score to cast spells of a certain level - as long as you have a 10 or 11 and the right class levels, you're good all the way through 9th level spells. The PH explicitly states that you can prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot. The AU spell system takes away that option, because Cook made sure that a few lower-level spell effects couldn't be replicated with higher-level magic.

I don't know what would work best with the Core system, but I hope I shed some light on some possible reasons why spell-weaving in AU is seemingly illogical.

Edit: I am posting at Monte Cook.com to see if this analysis misses anything...
-z
 
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Zoatebix said:
I doubt if this is helpful, ... {snip}
Alternatively, I could have totally missed the mark. Icould go to montecook.com and post there to ask him if anyone else is interested...

Actually it is Very helpful. These are all really good points. The Core PHB spell system is VERY different from AU's spell system. Everything you pointed is SO true. The lack of ability score requirements, the better scaling, etc. Include the fact that spells can be Diminished and Heightened, etc. and its a whole different ball of wax. Overall, the most important aspect is that it is a much weaker spell system than the core spells as you pointed out. More flexible, but "lower magic" in style and power. Thus it doesnt really corelate well to the core magic system.
I would be intrigued to see what people on Monte's board had to say about implementing Weaving in the core spell system.

On a personal note, IF it were implimented in the core system I would agree that there has to be a cost to trading spell slots. For example the 2:1 ratio to upgrade a slot. 3:1 in the core system is far too much. I'll take 3 magic missles over a melf's acid arrow any day. The only time 3:1 would be worth it is if you are desperate to power a utility spell such as when the bad guy is getting away behind the locked door he just slammed shut and you need to sacrifice those 3 magic missles for a knock. I still think the cost is too high though.

The big question is the downward exchange. Right now you can cast a lower level spell with any higher level spell but the cost in that is unfarely fenominal if it is with a spell slot anything more than one level higher. Granted it is written as it is for some form of flexibility but more for "ease of use". I would much rather see a system that lets you recharge lower level spell slots by burning higher level spell slots with a cost. How to do that I am unsure of though, short of recharging X-1 spell levels where X is the level of the spell sacrificed. Thus a 2nd level spell could recharge a 1st or 2 0-level, while say a 9th could recharge an 8th or any combination of spell levels up to 8.

Thoughts?
 

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