Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 3)

[fuindordm]

Man, I didn't think that little mechanic would derail this thread!

Personally, I'm quite comforable with the AU mechanic. It makes sense to me (as a physicist) that fusing things together requires more energy than breaking them apart; the extra spell slot when trading up is the glue that holds the weaving together.

As for the reason you can only trade down once, I think it's just because Monte didn't want one 9th level spell to generate 2^8 first-level spells!

But I agree that a different mechanic would be more suitable for D&D magic.

I would much rather see a system that lets you recharge lower level spell slots by burning higher level spell slots with a cost. How to do that I am unsure of though, short of recharging X-1 spell levels where X is the level of the spell sacrificed. Thus a 2nd level spell could recharge a 1st or 2 0-level, while say a 9th could recharge an 8th or any combination of spell levels up to 8.

Thoughts?

That's not a bad idea. It would make a great feat for spontaneous casters in
general:

Unravel Magic

Flavor Text: Spontaneous spellcasters can take the magical energy in a high-level slot and redistribute it into a number of lower-level slots. This is a delicate operation, and requires above-average intuition.
Requirement: Wis 13+, spontaneous spellcaster
Benefit: With 10 minutes of preparation, a spontaneous spellcaster can "unravel" a high-level spell slot and use that energy to recharge lower-level slots at a more favorable rate. Unraveling a spell of level N in this way generates N-1 spell levels that can be distributed as desired among the lower level slots.
Normal: A spontaneous caster can use a high-level spell slot to cast any one lower-level spell.

Alternative mechanic: add a concentration skill roll; the better the roll, the more efficient the unraveling.

Weave Magic

Requirement: Int 13+, spontaneous spellcaster
Benefit: One or more lower-level spells can be woven together into a high-level spell slot. This requires a concentration skill roll with DC 10 +
2 x the level of the slot being woven. (Weaving a 5th-level slot, for example, is DC20). If this check is successful, the spellcaster sacrifices a number of slots with combined levels equal to 1.5 x the target slot (round down).

Examples:
A 1st level spell can be woven from 2 0-level spells (1.5 --> 1)
A 2nd level spell can be woven from 3 1-level spells (3.0 --> 3)
A 3rd level spell can be woven from 4 1-level spells or one 2nd and 2 1st
A 4th level spell can be woven from a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-level slot, or from 3 second-level slots
etc...

Overall this is a more favorable ratio, especially at high levels.

--Ben


--Ben

 

[Zoatebix]

I was pretty confused by the mechanic in your Weave Magic feat until I saw the 'round down' parenthesis. It might be best to make that more explicit, or to simply give a spell level cost chart.

Woven...............(0-level spells count as 1/2 spell level)
level...............Cost
1st-level...........1 spell level
2nd-level...........3 spell levels
3rd-level...........4 spell levels
4th-level...........6 spell levels
5th-level...........7 spell levels
... etc.

Of course, we don't have to shave off the last 1/2 level, either. People have to use those cantrips and (when those few run out) 1st level spells sometime.

So would the variant sorceror get one of these feats for free early in their career, and the core bard have to pay for them normally?
-z

 

[Spatzimaus]

I've only recently come back to reading this discussion, after some older threads on the topic. I like some of the latest changes you've suggested, but I've got a few comments:

1> I do think it's too much of a power increase. Sorcerers needed a boost, of course, but I think the latest version puts it well above the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid in power. Looking at this class, I have to ask myself, why play a Wizard?
Ways you could fix this:
> At the levels where you gain a Lineage spell, it counts as one of your two new spells for that level (specifically, it's the one at your max level, so the other one has to be lower). In a sense, it's like a Wizard's specialization. Now, your alt.Sorcerer will know the same number of spells as the original Sorcerer, and the restriction on some of his spells will compensate for the wider list he can pick from.
> Have the HD depend on which Lineage you choose. Maybe d6 for Draconic and Unknown, d4 for the others, or something like that.

2> "Gypsy" is too campaign-specific. I like the flavor of it, but not every campaign allows for a very specific ethnic group of humans as a source of magic. Instead, I'd replace it with "Fey", which wouldn't even require a large change in abilities, and fits far more with the generic D&D setup, IMO. After all, you then don't have to explain why Gypsies are inherently magical, while everyone just accepts that Fey are. It'd change the level 20 abilities a bit, though.

3> The Lineage Abilities at 8, 14, and 20 seem more appropriate for Prestige Classes than as part of a core class. So, let's say the Sorcerer picks a Lineage at level 1, which gives the Lineage spells, and then you add a few PrCs like "Draconic Sorcerer", whose requirements include Draconic Lineage and "can cast 4th-level arcane spells spontaneously". The "Unknown Lineage" option would basically correspond to those people who remained within the core class, never tapping into their heritage fully.

This also leads to a bigger problem:
4> It's just so LONG. This isn't meant to insult the design, but no core class takes that many pages of explanation. That's part of why I think the extra Lineage abilities should be split off into Prestige Classes. It'll save you some writing, but more importantly, someone who's creating their character won't be overloaded with decisions.

5> The Shadow Lineage should oppose darkness just as much as it does light, and shouldn't really involve the good/evil split. So, they shouldn't be specially vulnerable to Angels, I'd say.

 

[Zoatebix]

I've edited my post about spell weaving to get rid of my poor writing from sleep deprivation, and I've posted on Monte Cook's boards to make sure we're analyzing things right.

I'll do some cut and paste later this weekend and compare the variant sorcerer's length to the classes from the SRD (yay for highlight plus tools - wordcount) and see how much longer Khaalis's sorcerer is. If memory serves me correctly, there is a generic chart in UA of what bloodlines should do (skill bonus at this level, etc.) - maybe we could make a detailed-ish sorcerer bloodline template that DMs and players could use to create their own by pluggin in appropriate abilities?
-z

 

[Coredump]

Okay, I have been following this thread awhile, and Khaalis puts in a lot of work, so lets see if I can answer these 'for' him.

I've only recently come back to reading this discussion, after some older threads on the topic. I like some of the latest changes you've suggested, but I've got a few comments:

Good to have you back, and always good to get input.

1> I do think it's too much of a power increase. Sorcerers needed a boost, of course, but I think the latest version puts it well above the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid in power. Looking at this class, I have to ask myself, why play a Wizard?

Well, on the thread with the poll, 1/2 the people thought sorcerer was the weakest class. So it may need more than a 'boost'. As for playing a wizard, they get access to a LOT more spells, and they get more feats and a familiar. But, mostly the wide flexibility in the spells they can choose.

Ways you could fix this:

Lets have a look...

> At the levels where you gain a Lineage spell, it counts as one of your two new spells for that level (specifically, it's the one at your max level, so the other one has to be lower). In a sense, it's like a Wizard's specialization. Now, your alt.Sorcerer will know the same number of spells as the original Sorcerer, and the restriction on some of his spells will compensate for the wider list he can pick from.

One of the main complaints about the sorcerer is the lack of versatility they have in picking spells, since they have so few 'known spells' available. What you are suggesting will make that *more* of a problem, since you will be dictating some of the spells they have to take. Severly cutting into what choices people can make. And since the Lineage spells are often not the 'best choices', it will weaken the sorcerer a lot.

> Have the HD depend on which Lineage you choose. Maybe d6 for Draconic and Unknown, d4 for the others, or something like that.

Neat idea, but no other core (or prestige) class works that way.

2> "Gypsy" is too campaign-specific. I like the flavor of it, but not every campaign allows for a very specific ethnic group of humans as a source of magic. Instead, I'd replace it with "Fey", which wouldn't even require a large change in abilities, and fits far more with the generic D&D setup, IMO. After all, you then don't have to explain why Gypsies are inherently magical, while everyone just accepts that Fey are. It'd change the level 20 abilities a bit, though.

Um... maybe. The Lineages are not all going to be appropriate for all campaigns, they are not meant to be. Just like Cleric domains, there are LOTS of them, and you pick the ones that fit into your campaign. OTOH, my campaign would better fit having a Gypsy lineage, rather than a fey lineage...but YMMV.
Also, I think most cultures (and many campaigns) have some sort of travelling nomadic type folks.

3> The Lineage Abilities at 8, 14, and 20 seem more appropriate for Prestige Classes than as part of a core class. So, let's say the Sorcerer picks a Lineage at level 1, which gives the Lineage spells, and then you add a few PrCs like "Draconic Sorcerer", whose requirements include Draconic Lineage and "can cast 4th-level arcane spells spontaneously". The "Unknown Lineage" option would basically correspond to those people who remained within the core class, never tapping into their heritage fully.

Several points on this.
1) Check out the special abilities from Rogue, or any of the upper level 'benefits' from bard, paladin, ranger, monk, etc. Any of those would fit well with a PrC. What is to determine what is okay for a 14th level ability, and what should be kept for a PrC?
2) On the heels of that, one of the complaints is that there is currently *nothing* keeping someone as a sorcerer. There is no 'cost' to going PrC. To stop this, you need to get *something* for staying with the core class.
3) What is the point of having a Draconic Lineage, and then having to go to a Draconic Sorcerer PrC? Since it is a 'forced' progression. (you *have* to be the first tobecome the later) what is the benefit/purpose? Why would one stay as a Draconic Lineage Sorcerer? If there is no reason, and they would move to Draconic PrC, why not just put them as the same class?

4> It's just so LONG. This isn't meant to insult the design, but no core class takes that many pages of explanation. That's part of why I think the extra Lineage abilities should be split off into Prestige Classes. It'll save you some writing, but more importantly, someone who's creating their character won't be overloaded with decisions.

Ignore the lineages, just look at the core class. It isn't longer than the ones in the PHB. Yes the lineages add length, but so do the Domains of the Clerics. And the decisions are essentially the same as having to pick what domains you want.

5> The Shadow Lineage should oppose darkness just as much as it does light, and shouldn't really involve the good/evil split. So, they shouldn't be specially vulnerable to Angels, I'd say.

Hmm... maybe. I will have to think about this. But historically, shadow has always been associated more with night and evil, rather than day. OTOH, it already goes against that by requiring a level of 'neutral' alignment.....

 

[Coredump]

If memory serves me correctly, there is a generic chart in UA of what bloodlines should do (skill bonus at this level, etc.) - maybe we could make a detailed-ish sorcerer bloodline template that DMs and players could use to create their own by pluggin in appropriate abilities?
-z

hmmm.. is this what you are thinking about. (From Khaalis, bottom of page 2)

The lineages are also not to be included in the core class write-up. They are an addendum addition, similar to Domains. The lineages are examples, and by no means exhaustive – also similar to domains, and can be expounded on at will by others.
As for the length of the lineages… what is so complex about them? They are quite simple in design but I have attempted to make them clear and unambiguous unlike some of the PHB rules.
Name: Description
Benefits:
Special Limitations:
Lineage Spells:
Lineage Abilities: 8th, 14th, 20th

 

[Coredump]

Hmmm.. if the sorcerer decides to go to a PrC, and it is one with a "+1 to existing spell casting level" Will he still gain new lineage spells? Or is that going to be a 'penalty' for not being a straight sorcerer.

(I think you should not get the additional lineage spells, but that may not balance well.)

 

[Zoatebix]

hmmm.. is this what you are thinking about. (From Khaalis, bottom of page 2)

I was thinking of a little more detail - having example lineages is one thing, but having more specific guidelines as to what is appropriate at 8th, 14th, and 20th level could cut down on the class length (the example lineages could be a 'web enhancement

Then again, the example I used from UA isn't much more detailed than Khaalis's description, now that I look at it. I guess the skill bonuses, ability boost, and the affinities are well defined, but what constitutes an appropriate special abilitie is pretty nebulous unless you look at the example bloodlines.

Perhaps my suggestion is more trouble than it's worth.
-z

 

[Stalker0]

I'm back!!!

Alright, back to the celestial and fiendish lineages, i have not yet begun to comment!!

The +1 to caster level is by no means weak. There are only three ways in the game to get it. One is certain cleric domains, and those are for specific spells, another is death knell, and evil spell that kills a person, or an ioun stone that costs 30K.

For an innate ability (not an item) that's a very powerful ability, you can't emulate it with a feat, and for a sorc, only an item can give you an equivalent ability currently.

And again I say I really don't like the aura thing we got going right now for the lineage ability, now my idea may not be the best idea either, but I feel a change in direction is needed.

I have more later, its pretty late, but also: the draconic lineage gets charisma bonus to fort and will saves!! That's really really really powerful. Only the paladin gets an equivalent, and for him he gets it at lvl 2, and has a very strict code to follow. This is the sorcs main stat, and the -2 to certain elements is completely negated by this bonus to saves for the most part. For the initial benefit it should be much weaker.

I do like the idea of frightful prescence, I think it needs to be tweaked and rewritten a bit, but the idea is good imo.

Finally, glad to see so many active posters again!!

 

[Stalker0]

One last thing I noticed, we are using too many spell types when granting weaknesses.

For example the celestial does fear, death, evil... etc.

Considered an elven celestial sorc, everytime a spell is cast it will be:

"Is it evil?" Is it fear affect, death effect, mindaffecting?"

My players ask if there enchantment bonus applies to elves for all kinds of situations and they've been playing a long time... what about new players just starting out?

While I'm glad we are working towards adding in weaknesses, we either need to make this cleaner and simpler or look for an alternative.