Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 3)

[Khaalis]

First let me please thank you all for keeping this going in my absence. My last bought of chemo put me down pretty hard. A special thanks to Coredump – you were right on the mark and saved me much time.

On the Mass Reply…

Man, I didn't think that little mechanic would derail this thread!

Its not a derail, it is a viable discussion for the sorcerer. If we hammered this out it would make a fine addition to the “Spells” section of the class to make them a bit more unique.

Personally, I'm quite comforable with the AU mechanic. It makes sense to me (as a physicist) that fusing things together requires more energy than breaking them apart; the extra spell slot when trading up is the glue that holds the weaving together. But I agree that a different mechanic would be more suitable for D&D magic.

I can understand this from a physics point of view, but as it exists, I think the mechanic doesnt quite work so well for standard D&D spells. AU spells Really ARE a completely different animal.

As for the reason you can only trade down once, I think it's just because Monte didn't want one 9th level spell to generate 2^8 first-level spells!

I can see this as a point as well. This might also pertain to…

Unravel Magic
Requirement: Wis 13+, spontaneous spellcaster
Benefit: With 10 minutes of preparation, a spontaneous spellcaster can "unravel" a high-level spell slot and use that energy to recharge lower-level slots at a more favorable rate. Unraveling a spell of level N in this way generates N-1 spell levels that can be distributed as desired among the lower level slots.
Normal: A spontaneous caster can use a high-level spell slot to cast any one lower-level spell.

Does anyone think the mechanic needs a failsafe to prevent mass abuse as mentioned above (ie: getting 8 1st level spells for a 9th) or is that a fair trade?
I think it’s a fair trade myself. It grants more flexibility for quite a bit less power.

Weave Magic
Requirement: Int 13+, spontaneous spellcaster
Benefit: One or more lower-level spells can be woven together into a high-level spell slot. This requires a concentration skill roll with DC 10 + 2x the level of the slot being woven. (Weaving a 5th-level slot, for example, is DC20). If this check is successful, the spellcaster sacrifices a number of slots with combined levels equal to 1.5 x the target slot (round down).
Examples:
A 1st level spell can be woven from 2 0-level spells (1.5 --> 1)
A 2nd level spell can be woven from 3 1-level spells (3.0 --> 3)
A 3rd level spell can be woven from 4 1-level spells or one 2nd and 2 1st
A 4th level spell can be woven from a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-level slot, or from 3 second-level slots
etc...
Overall this is a more favorable ratio, especially at high levels.

While I like these, they are a bit complex. Weaving 2 lower level spells to get a spell level one level higher is much more simple, but much more costly as well. I am not sure which way to lean, Simplicity or Lower Cost. Although I think Zoa is mostly correct here...

I was pretty confused by the mechanic in your Weave Magic feat until I saw the 'round down' parenthesis. It might be best to make that more explicit, or to simply give a spell level cost chart.
Woven...............(0-level spells count as 1/2 spell level)
level...............Cost
1st-level...........1 spell level
2nd-level...........3 spell levels
3rd-level...........4 spell levels
4th-level...........6 spell levels
5th-level...........7 spell levels
... etc.

Of course, we don't have to shave off the last 1/2 level, either. People have to use those cantrips and (when those few run out) 1st level spells sometime.

The only problem I have here is that it will take away yet more weight from the 0-level spell. Its already hard to get people to use them for much more than detect magic as it is. The more I look at it the more I am not sure what the ratio should be. The 1.5 is a good range but the Fraction factor makes it a bit clunky to deal with. I am almost forced to lean to simplicity and say it is simply a +X spell level ratio.

Similar to Unweaving at N-1 gain in spell levels, the cost to Weave would be something like Cost = N+1, where N is the spell level attempting to be woven.
Thus:
1st level would cost 2 Spell levels (4 cantrips)
2nd level would cost 3 Spell levels (3 1st or 2 1st + 2 cantrips)
3rd level would cost 4 Spell levels (4 1st level, 2 2nd, 1 2nd + 2 1st)
4th level would cost 5 Spell levels (5 1st level, 2 2nd + 1 1st, 1 4th + 1 1st, 1 3rd + 1 2nd)
etc.

So would the variant sorceror get one of these feats for free early in their career, and the core bard have to pay for them normally?

If they were done as feats most likely. I am personally leaning toward them being a part of the sorcerer spell mechanic myself. Something to truly make the sorcerer feel unique and fit the flavor text quotes:
* ”A Sorcerer’s power is inborn, and part of his soul. Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through carefully trained skills. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical. For Sorcerers, magic is an intuitive art, not a science.”
* “Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories – just raw power that they direct at will.”

I've posted on Monte Cook's boards to make sure we're analyzing things right.

Most excellent. Let us know what happens. I will try to get over there and check them out myself, but I cant promise I will have the time.

Well, on the thread with the poll, 1/2 the people thought sorcerer was the weakest class. So it may need more than a 'boost'. As for playing a wizard, they get access to a LOT more spells, and they get more feats and a familiar. But, mostly the wide flexibility in the spells they can choose.

This is correct. If I wanted a Spellcaster with pure versatility, I would play a Wizard. If I want to play a Spellcaster that fits a very specific archetype with little versatility form that archetype, I would play the sorcerer. Also, the Wizard (as it exists in core) is a great class to MC or PrC with if that is your thing (such as the Archmage).

One of the main complaints about the sorcerer is the lack of versatility they have in picking spells, since they have so few 'known spells' available. What you are suggesting will make that *more* of a problem, since you will be dictating some of the spells they have to take. Severly cutting into what choices people can make. And since the Lineage spells are often not the 'best choices', it will weaken the sorcerer a lot.

Right on the mark. The bonus known spells are 2-fold.
1) It gives that tiny “bump” in spells known (10 spells by 20th level) since 90% of the complaints in the class is that there are too few spells known.
2) It keeps the bonus spells known from being “abused” by forcing them into a specific theme (which brings us back to matching the flavor text).

Um... maybe. The Lineages are not all going to be appropriate for all campaigns, they are not meant to be. Just like Cleric domains, there are LOTS of them, and you pick the ones that fit into your campaign. OTOH, my campaign would better fit having a Gypsy lineage, rather than a fey lineage...but YMMV.
Also, I think most cultures (and many campaigns) have some sort of travelling nomadic type folks.

Exactly. I don’t know how often I can say that the “lineages” are NOT a part of the core class material. They are no more a part of the core than the Domain text in the Cleric. The actual Lineages would be a part of another section (an addendum or chapter insert of their own).
As for Gypsy – yes it is very game specific. It was meant to be. It is an example of how to make campaign specific Lineages. Not all lineages have to be as openly generic as Celestial or Draconic. For example some campaign worlds allow for Undead to create living spawn. In such a campaign world you could have for example a Sorcerer of Vampiric Lineage. Will I attempt to detail every possible Lineage someone can think up to justify? No. These are examples. DM’s will take and use what they will and create their own as they see fit. As I have stated before there are 3 very perfect templates of this: Domains, and the classes in the AU – Witch and Totem Warrior (each of which use a class template design that allows for unlimited possibilities to be created in place of the core examples).

1) Check out the special abilities from Rogue, or any of the upper level 'benefits' from bard, paladin, ranger, monk, etc. Any of those would fit well with a PrC. What is to determine what is okay for a 14th level ability, and what should be kept for a PrC?
2) On the heels of that, one of the complaints is that there is currently *nothing* keeping someone as a sorcerer. There is no 'cost' to going PrC. To stop this, you need to get *something* for staying with the core class.
3) What is the point of having a Draconic Lineage, and then having to go to a Draconic Sorcerer PrC? Since it is a 'forced' progression. (you *have* to be the first tobecome the later) what is the benefit/purpose? Why would one stay as a Draconic Lineage Sorcerer? If there is no reason, and they would move to Draconic PrC, why not just put them as the same class?

Good points all. Let me just add that as in #2 above, the entire point is to create a class that can be viably balanced with all of the other classes in the game WITHOUT the need to PrC. People seem to forget that PrC’s are a DM OPTION. They are NOT a part of the Core Class system. They have run amok due to the proliferated d20 publishing. As was mentioned in an earlier part of the thread NO class should be built with even the slightest Thought of PrC’s in mind. PrC’s are written to match core classes. Core classes are not written to fit into PrC’s.

Ignore the lineages, just look at the core class. It isn't longer than the ones in the PHB. Yes the lineages add length, but so do the Domains of the Clerics. And the decisions are essentially the same as having to pick what domains you want.

Correct. I hope to put this to rest once for all…

The sorcerer as I have written takes up 1.5 pages (2 column size 8 font like the PHB, without flavor text) while the PHB sorcerer uses up 2.25 pages.

In publishing terms, per SRD material, the core sorcerer, counting only from “Class Features” forward (not the table, the skills or the flavor text) is comprised of 2,073 words or 11,834 characters with spaces (including Familiar and Armor sidebars). The Alt.sorcerer presented on page 1 here is comprised of 1,442 words or 8,334 characters with spaces.

Hmm... maybe. I will have to think about this. But historically, shadow has always been associated more with night and evil, rather than day. OTOH, it already goes against that by requiring a level of 'neutral' alignment.....

Shadow as it appears here is based on its use in most of the existing D&D d20 material. Shadow is comprised of both “Shadow” and “Darkness” and is generally linked in some manner to evil/necromancy. As for the Angels – they were chosen specifically because they are the listed celestials most linked to light and radiance.

I'm back!!!

Welcome back – hope spring break was a good vacation. I miss those days…

Alright, back to the celestial and fiendish lineages, i have not yet begun to comment!!
The +1 to caster level is by no means weak. There are only three ways in the game to get it. One is certain cleric domains, and those are for specific spells, another is death knell, and evil spell that kills a person, or an ioun stone that costs 30K.

Ok, +1 caster level is of some use (I personally still don’t see it as a big deal, in MOST cases, its not even enough to get you an extra damage die).
IF we were to use this mechanic I would prefer to see it used as a constant ability rather than a “Use per day” ability. However – to what would it apply? Lineage spells only is way too limited. I also don’t want the celestial and fiendish to end up being champions of good/evil. The only restrictions they have is a strength toward one side. In other words a celestial sorcerer could be CN. He just cant be evil (too much ‘good’ blood). I don’t want to force them into powers that only work against evil – they aren’t Paladins and they aren’t champions of light – they just have celestial lineage that grants them certain celestial-like powers.

And again I say I really don't like the aura thing we got going right now for the lineage ability, now my idea may not be the best idea either, but I feel a change in direction is needed.

Still don’t have anything better. There really are NO powers unique to celestials other than something like this.

the draconic lineage gets charisma bonus to fort and will saves!! That's really really really powerful. Only the paladin gets an equivalent, and for him he gets it at lvl 2, and has a very strict code to follow. This is the sorcs main stat, and the -2 to certain elements is completely negated by this bonus to saves for the most part. For the initial benefit it should be much weaker.

I have thought about this and I am leaning toward this taking the effect of a dragon’s overall resistance, basically granting CHA mod versus spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities. Much more restricted and fits closer to other abilities – not a watered down divine grace.

I do like the idea of frightful prescence, I think it needs to be tweaked and rewritten a bit, but the idea is good imo.

In what way? This is basically taken directly from the SRD with a few tweaks to fit a class ability.

One last thing I noticed, we are using too many spell types when granting weaknesses.
For example the celestial does fear, death, evil... etc.
Considered an elven celestial sorc, everytime a spell is cast it will be:
"Is it evil?" Is it fear affect, death effect, mindaffecting?"

On this one I have to state I disagree. Most of the lineages do not have so many restrictions, but if you look at the thread post where this is discussed (Post #47) you will see that it is basically necessary for the Celestial to create a “Fair” and “accurate” representation of the magic they are banned from using.

On a purely personal note – I have no sympathy for lazy players. There is a difference between the principle of KISS and sacrificing accuracy for lazy people. As I showed in Post 47 it doesn’t take that much effort to pick up the book and “look” to see what a spell’s descriptor is.

Finally, glad to see so many active posters again!!

Agreed – A hearty ”Huzzah!” to all.

Ok, that’s all I can handle for right now. Time to go recuperate a bit again. I look forward to everyone’s replies. And again, as always….

THANK YOU!

 

[Stalker0]

Just another note for the +1 caster level, it can do far more than just an extra damage die.

1) Up to 4d6 extra damage in the cases of spells like scorching ray
2) Another target for the spell to be used upon.
3) Another round of duration
4) Another 5% chance to beat SR, half a feat right there.
5) Allows the spell to beat certain hd limits, such as caster level - 5 etc.

If we are going to limit the ability to 3/day or cha mod per day I have no probs with allowing it on any spell the sorc can cast.

Finally, I wasn't talking about lazy players, I'm talking about poor dms. As a dm running an encounter or a combat I don't like players having to ask well do I get x against that spell, or y? And I sympathize with my players, sometimes they don't know the spell, or its one I've made up and they need to know. For those its fine by me. But for this they would be asking many many more questions about a lot of spells, and that slows down the game and becomes frustrating for dms.

Mechanics have to be as easy to implement as they should be to understand, and in this case I think the mechanic breaks down.

 

[monboesen]

Does anyone think the mechanic needs a failsafe to prevent mass abuse as mentioned above (ie: getting 8 1st level spells for a 9th) or is that a fair trade?

Its a lot fairer trade than the 256 that would be generated by using AU rules but allowing downweaving more than one level.

If they were done as feats most likely. I am personally leaning toward them being a part of the sorcerer spell mechanic myself. Something to truly make the sorcerer feel unique and fit the flavor text quotes:

This is one of the points where I really disagree, to allow sorcerers to do this for free (featwise) is a major power boost. I belive its one of those things that looks a bit bland on paper but will have a huge impact on gameplay.

Good points all. Let me just add that as in #2 above, the entire point is to create a class that can be viably balanced with all of the other classes in the game WITHOUT the need to PrC. People seem to forget that PrC’s are a DM OPTION. They are NOT a part of the Core Class system. They have run amok due to the proliferated d20 publishing. As was mentioned in an earlier part of the thread NO class should be built with even the slightest Thought of PrC’s in mind. PrC’s are written to match core classes. Core classes are not written to fit into PrC’s.

But take note of how few major spellcasters actually gains powerful abilities on high (or any) levels. Thats because spells by themselves are a very powerfull ability, one that rises exponentially with level. Spellcasters with access to 8-9th level spells should not gain any other major powers. Again entirely my own opinion.

I have thought about this and I am leaning toward this taking the effect of a dragon’s overall resistance, basically granting CHA mod versus spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities. Much more restricted and fits closer to other abilities – not a watered down divine grace.

OK, but how many saving throws do not have to do with magic. Theres poison and traps, but at least in my games they are less frequent than saves vs. magic (and some traps are magic effects as well). In many (or even most) games that ability won't be much different than divine grace. Thats a huge ability, espicially since a sorcerer is likely to have better charisma than a paladin.


I'm sorry if I seem overly critical or come of as snappish. I really think that there are many good ideas in this thread, but a lot of them will simply make the Sorcerer class to strong.

 

[Zoatebix]

Hagen kirk over on Monte's boards provided a rather extreme example of what one can accomplish with the AU unraveling rules:

Well, weaving up is inefficient. Unraveling down can be very efficient.

Let's take a 20th level magister's normal slots:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3

Now Lets unravel 2 ninth level slots and all available slots of levels 1-8.

0.. 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 7.. 8.. 9
18. 12. 12. 12. 10. 10. 8.. 8.. 4.. 1

As you can see, for a small decrease in 9th level slots there is a huge increase in low level slots.

(I had to use periods to get the number to line up right, sorry)

So you give up two 9th-level spells, don't lose any 8th-level spells, double your 1-7th level spells, and triple your 0th-level spells. You're trading down almost all of your magic, but you're only really giving up two ninth level slots. This is a lot more powerful that the feat we're discussion, at least in terms of number of spell levels.

Or course, you can't do any more weaving with any of these besides six 0-level spells, and one 9th-level spell you could still unravel into two more 8ths.

Personally, I think the feat 'unravel spell' has a much safer mechanic (n-1 spell levels) for use with the core spellcasting rules, while still affording new flexibility. I don't think the n-1 unravel or the n+1 weave are overpowering in and of themselves - but combined with other powers they could make a too-powerful class. Maybe they could be part of a 'path' similar to the Ranger's choice of two-weapon fighting or archery. I'm not sure which comprable ability one would have to give up to use weaving/unraveling, though, nor at what level one would pick a path...

-z
P.S. - I was totally wrong about the minimum ability score requirment thing for AU spells. I must have been really tired that night...

 

[Stalker0]

As far as teh weaving stuff goes, I'd just say you can only unweave one spell level or something, that should fix the majority of those problems with that system.

However, I'd say that mechanic shouldn't be implemented in this sorc unless we pull out something big from what we have now. Allowing it as feats might be alright.

 

[fuindordm]

Weaving feat

OK, here's an alternative idea for the spell weaving feat:

Weave spell:
Requirements: Int 13+, spontaneous spellcaster

A spellcaster with this feat can combine two spell slots into a single spell slot of higher level. Casting a spell in this way is always a full-round action (full-round as in a Summon Monster spell--not just disallowing a move action on the same round). Casting a spell is considered part of the weaving; combining spell slots and casting a spell is a single full-round action.

To create a spell slot of level N, the spellcaster must sacrifice a spell slot of level N-1 and another spell slot of level at least N/2.

The spellcaster can weave additional slots in the same round with a concentration check DC (10 + 2xtarget spell level), adding +2 to the
DC for each weaving after the second.

For example, Rhialto needs to cast a 9th-level spell but is out of 9-th
level and 8th level spell slots. He can weave a 7th-level and a 4th-level
slot together into an 8th-level slot, then weave that 8th-level slot with
a 5th level slot to get a 9th level slot, then cast a 9th-level spell all as
a full-round action. To accomplish the second weaving, he needs to
succeed at a DC28 Concentration check (assuming he has max ranks and
is 18th level, he has a bonus of +21+(Con bonus) to the roll--pretty good
odds but there will probably be an occasional failure).

If the spellcaster is damaged by an attack during the weaving and fails their concentration check, the effort is wasted but the lower-level spell slots are not lost.

For example:
To make a 9th level spell you need an 8th level spell and a (5+)th level spell
To make an 8th level spell you need a 7th level spell and a (4+)th level spell
...
To make a 4th level spell you need a 3rd level spell and a 2nd or 3rd level "
To make a 3rd level spell you need 2 2nd level spells
To make a 2nd level spell you need 2 1st-level spells
To make a 1st level spell you need 2 0-level spells.

What I like about this version is that it requires you to give up at least one spell of comparable power--you can't create a 9th-level spell out of multiple 1st- and 2nd-level spells, for example.

--Ben

 

[Stalker0]

I recommened we move the spell weaving idea to a seperate thread... since it now seems to be more a seperate feat idea instead of a core part of this new class.

 

[StAlda]

I tried that already - here's the link http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79555

 

[Khaalis]

MASS REPLY

To get us back on track…

Celestial & Fiendish Lineage benefits change.

Benefit: Celestial sorcerers gain Knowledge (Religion and Planes) as a class skills as well as gaining Celestial as a bonus language.
Celestial sorcerers cast their lineage spells at +1 caster level. A number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma modifier the celestial sorcerer may also cast any spell they know at +1 caster level. This bonus can be stacked to make a lineage spell cast at +2 caster levels. Celestial sorcerers may learn any spell with the Light or Good descriptor as well as any spell from the Good cleric domain.

Benefit: Fiendish sorcerers gain +2 bonus on all Intimidate skill checks as well as gaining either Abyssal or Infernal as a bonus language. Fiendish sorcerers cast their lineage spells at +1 caster level. A number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma modifier the fiendish sorcerer may also cast any spell they know at +1 caster level. This bonus can be stacked to make a lineage spell cast at +2 caster levels. Fiendish sorcerers may learn any spell with the Darkness or Evil descriptor as well as any spell from the Evil cleric domain.

Reminder:
Celestial Lineage Spell List: 0–light; 1st-bless; 2nd-consecrate; 3rd-searing light; 4th-lesser planar ally; 5th-true seeing; 6th-planar ally; 7th-holy word; 8th-holy aura; 9th-gate

Fiendish Lineage Spell List: 0–touch of fatigue; 1st-bane; 2nd-desecrate; 3rd-ray of exhaustion; 4th-fire shield; 5th-righteous might; 6th-eyebite; 7th-blasphemy; 8th-unholy aura; 9th-gate

But take note of how few major spellcasters actually gains powerful abilities on high (or any) levels. Thats because spells by themselves are a very powerfull ability, one that rises exponentially with level. Spellcasters with access to 8-9th level spells should not gain any other major powers. Again entirely my own opinion.

The only problem here is that the core system as it is used (not necessarily designed) breaks this with the introduction of PrC’s. It appears from the these boards that 90% of the people use PrCs extensively. As such 99% of the Spellcaster Oriented PrCs out there give both exceptional abilities as well as a continued +1 Level Caster Ability gain. The idea with this build is to create a class that has an incentive to stay in the class to 20th level to get its abilities instead of bailing out to a PrC at the first available moment. To do that, the class must have something worth achieving at higher levels.

OK, but how many saving throws do not have to do with magic. Theres poison and traps, but at least in my games they are less frequent than saves vs. magic (and some traps are magic effects as well). In many (or even most) games that ability won't be much different than divine grace. Thats a huge ability, espicially since a sorcerer is likely to have better charisma than a paladin.

Then what would you suggest? The abilities classically given to the Draconic (PrC, Bloodline, Template, etc.) are:
• Draconic Vision (Darkvision & Lowlight) – currently given at 20th
• Natural Armor (+4) – currently given at 20th
• Breath Weapon – currently given at 20th
• Immunities (Breath Energy Type) – currently given at 20th
• Immunities (Sleep & Paralysis) – currently given at 20th
• Natural Weapons (Claw & Bite)
• Increased Hit Dice
• Stat Increases (Strength, Constitution, Intelligence & Charisma)
• Flight
• Energy Resistance

I have tried to break from the mold by giving them the Fear/Frightful Presence to make them unique from the Half-Dragon/Dragon Disciple. The rest were held off until 20th level to give an incentive to attain 20th level.

The remainders do not off much in the way of a 1st level class ability. Core classes do not give Stat Increases nor change Hit Dice. I really don’t want to give them the natural weapons, definitely not wings, and energy resistance might work but it falls in the same ballpark as the saving throws to magic.

The only other idea I have is to alter the benefit from the Unknown Lineage as follows. The only issue that I have is that it is not a Core Feat.

Benefit: Draconic sorcerers gain +2 bonus on all Intimidate skill checks as well as gaining Draconic as a bonus language.
They also gain the ability to use Energy Substitution as Spontaneous Metamagic. This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any spell the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier but may only be used to substitute the energy type of the sorcerer’s draconic lineage (if the dragon has more than one, choose one at 1st level). This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, if they have access to any other metamagic feats. To determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats (energy substitution is a +0 spell level metamagic feat).
Draconic sorcerers may learn any spell with the energy designator of the breath weapon of their draconic lineage regardless of the spell list from which they come from (if that dragon has more than one breath weapon the draconic sorcerer chooses one at 1st level, this must be the same energy type chosen for their Spontaneous Energy Substitution).

Thoughts?


PS: Replies to Spell Weaving are on that indicated thread.

 

[monboesen]

Benefit: Celestial sorcerers gain Knowledge (Religion and Planes) as a class skills as well as gaining Celestial as a bonus language.
Celestial sorcerers cast their lineage spells at +1 caster level. A number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma modifier the celestial sorcerer may also cast any spell they know at +1 caster level. This bonus can be stacked to make a lineage spell cast at +2 caster levels. Celestial sorcerers may learn any spell with the Light or Good descriptor as well as any spell from the Good cleric domain.

Benefit: Fiendish sorcerers gain +2 bonus on all Intimidate skill checks as well as gaining either Abyssal or Infernal as a bonus language. Fiendish sorcerers cast their lineage spells at +1 caster level. A number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma modifier the fiendish sorcerer may also cast any spell they know at +1 caster level. This bonus can be stacked to make a lineage spell cast at +2 caster levels. Fiendish sorcerers may learn any spell with the Darkness or Evil descriptor as well as any spell from the Evil cleric domain.

These look fine to me, and oh boy how the celestial sorcerers are going to enjoy Holy smite!

Reminder:
Celestial Lineage Spell List: 0–light; 1st-bless; 2nd-consecrate; 3rd-searing light; 4th-lesser planar ally; 5th-true seeing; 6th-planar ally; 7th-holy word; 8th-holy aura; 9th-gate

Fiendish Lineage Spell List: 0–touch of fatigue; 1st-bane; 2nd-desecrate; 3rd-ray of exhaustion; 4th-fire shield; 5th-righteous might; 6th-eyebite; 7th-blasphemy; 8th-unholy aura; 9th-gate

Looks suitable.

The only problem here is that the core system as it is used (not necessarily designed) breaks this with the introduction of PrC’s. It appears from the these boards that 90% of the people use PrCs extensively. As such 99% of the Spellcaster Oriented PrCs out there give both exceptional abilities as well as a continued +1 Level Caster Ability gain. The idea with this build is to create a class that has an incentive to stay in the class to 20th level to get its abilities instead of bailing out to a PrC at the first available moment. To do that, the class must have something worth achieving at higher levels.

Yeah I guess thats another discussion really. I really disagree strongly with that type of prestige classes. Almost every one should cost one or more spellcasting levels. If the premise is that the sorcerer should have incentive to stay, and look ok compared to classes like archmage and incantrantix, well yes then they need powers at high level. But then so does wizards and clerics.

Then what would you suggest?
The remainders do not off much in the way of a 1st level class ability. Core classes do not give Stat Increases nor change Hit Dice. I really don’t want to give them the natural weapons, definitely not wings, and energy resistance might work but it falls in the same ballpark as the saving throws to magic.

That would be a better idea in my opinion: Something along the lines of 1/2 levels. So a 6 level sorcerer would have, for instance, Fire resistance 3/-

Benefit: Draconic sorcerers gain +2 bonus on all Intimidate skill checks as well as gaining Draconic as a bonus language.
They also gain the ability to use Energy Substitution as Spontaneous Metamagic. This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any spell the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier but may only be used to substitute the energy type of the sorcerer’s draconic lineage (if the dragon has more than one, choose one at 1st level). This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, if they have access to any other metamagic feats. To determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats (energy substitution is a +0 spell level metamagic feat).
Draconic sorcerers may learn any spell with the energy designator of the breath weapon of their draconic lineage regardless of the spell list from which they come from (if that dragon has more than one breath weapon the draconic sorcerer chooses one at 1st level, this must be the same energy type chosen for their Spontaneous Energy Substitution).

Like that. Still think that most of these abilities should have a fixed number of uses/day. Maybe one that increases with level, that would be a small incentive to stay in the class too.