Sorcerer: the only class I'm worried about (and how I'd make it)

[ferratus]

I really like the idea of the sorcerer being con-based thematically.

The problem is that constitution is a really good stat to invest in already because it provides more hp and good saves.

But the 4e infernal warlock managed to work fairly well, so I guess it all depends on the implentation.

 

[Banshee16]

Well, It can indeed be terrible, but it doesn't have to be. You'd only have two spell seeds for that reason. And you could also have a list of all the most common combinations. Then if you see the need of something different, you'd just try that and if it stays within your power limit, you could do that. In a wilder-like fashion, you could even sometimes "overcharge" and cast something a bit out of your power limits, think Action Point specialty or something...
Anyway, also to address the Blasty McBlasterson problem (cool one, Dausuul ), I first of all think that a sorcerer like this should be able to fill all the 4e combat roles:

- Striker: Blasty McBlasterson, forms such as bolts, small area bursts, lines etc (Fire, Lightning etc, some forms should have more damage than others fo course)
- Controller: specialized in forms such as walls, zones and so on, with wind walls, water whirlpools, earth cages and so on
- Defender: specialized in forms such as melee, shields etc, with cold auras to slow, earth rumbles to prone, blades of ice, electric shock if you attack others and so on
- Leader: specialized in "friendly forms", mainly applying effects to allies, buffs like elemental resistance, energy transference (that cool Artificer power rated sky blue ), free fire weapons for everybody, stoneskin for ally and so on.

That said, I also think more and more they should have a "fundamental spell-seed". There you'd have the most element-neutral and low-power effects for a bit more generalist use. Something to explore, could even become very flavorful.

And another thing I didn't state, I also figured fun out-of-combat uses for on-the-fly creative magic. Pick locks with keys made of pure force would be trivial, conjure bridges of ice, water plus air to create fog, combine elements to form incredible things such as floating force-contained bubbles of water a la Bubble-Bobble, create traps such as mud pits covered by thin layer of solid earth... Creativity is the key! I imagine a sorcerer player interaction with DM being more of the type "can I fly propelled by fire for a bit, to reach that part of the cliff?" - *DM consults his effects-by-level table* - "yes you can, but beware, only 6 seconds of flight and only in a single direction!"... That's the sort of freedom I'd like from a 5e Sorcerer...

There have to be more than just two seeds. Over simplification will kill it. It's also why I don't think they'll go this way for the sorcerer. Playing a character only able to create effects from two themes? Ugh.. boring.

I *love* the idea of a spell creation system....but I really don't think they'll put it in.

Banshee

 

[Recidivism]

To be honest I don't see any need for a Sorcerer distinct from a Warlock, given that a Sorcerer's power ostensibly derives from heritage from a supernatural being and a Warlock's power can arise from ... a pact with or heritage from a supernatural being. Although you could just roll the Warlock up into the Sorcerer just as easily.

 

[Nivenus]

To be honest I don't see any need for a Sorcerer distinct from a Warlock, given that a Sorcerer's power ostensibly derives from heritage from a supernatural being and a Warlock's power can arise from ... a pact with or heritage from a supernatural being. Although you could just roll the Warlock up into the Sorcerer just as easily.

There's a point there. I'd still say there's a difference between Faustian magic and inborn magical talent, but it is probably more than possible to make both different flavors of the same mechanics.

Still, I don't think that's what fans of the sorcerer class really want.

 

[Mircoles]

Having the sorcerer as the "elemental" based caster is an idea that I've always liked.

 

[avin]

It's a long text and I'm not in the mood of reading it... but Sorcerer is the only caster I care about, so I'm gonna endorse your concerns whatever they are...

PS. I like CHA tho.

 

[LordArchaon]

Strange news for 4e Sorcerers and this thread: Heroes of the Elemental Chaos features an essential-ized Sorcerer called Elementalist (I swear I didn't know before!) and hear hear: it's Cha / CON! I hope this Con inclusion may be a sign of things to come. Anyway, it sadly doesn't provide any support for the existent Sorcerer (powers don't have a level), and it's one of those fixed encounter power classes with little variability/choices, although it may be fun to play. The poster at Wizard's Community is a bit too short on words to actually get some info, but it's ok: Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible
[at least he isn't as wordy as I am, making people lazy to read my post! ]

 

[barefootwanderer]

I like the idea

As a massive fan of White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension - which used 'spheres' of influence and power to build effects on the fly. I would love to see this implemented. It's something that i think would sit very well with the feel of 'Next' as I've understood it from playtest reports I've read (reading between the lines obviously)

I would restrict sorcerer powers to elemental myself - make them the absolute masters of elemental power - but tie non physical elemental effects in too - so there could be some healing stuff allowed through use of water, charm effects with fire, mobility effects with air, and physical protective effects with earth. Lets step away from the roles idea from 4e - that made it feel far too MMOish for my tastes - i want my characters to be characters, not a tick in the box. If you give roles - parties will feel compelled to fill all the roles.

(for the record there were some things i loved about 4e, but it felt more like a WOW boardgame (so much so that my group pondered playing the Deadmines as a D&D4e adventure)) than a D&D edition sadly - a worthy game in it's own right, with some brilliant rule mechanics - but it didn't feel like it truly captured the spirit of D&D)

mixing elemental powers to produce effects also - air + fire for lightning maybe? lava balls conjured using earth and fire. ice with air + water.

it is possible to come up with an elegant system for this. that wouldn't grind the game to a halt every time the sorcerer's turn came around. Using the elemental powers and 'forms' to shape them into effects. If the game is going to be modular in the building of it's mechanics - then this - a modular free form caster who has the get creative with limited sources of power - fits right in. Especially with D&DNext's renewed focus on player/DM interaction - this kind of caster could be truly brilliant fun to play and have in a party.

 

[paladinm]

I've always viewed the Sorcerer as how the Wizard should have been done. A wizard could have all of his available spells (in his spellbook), have some of them prepared (the Sorcerer's spells-per-day), and be able to cast them as long as he has the spell slots available. Metamagic feats require a higher spell slot, etc. His prepared spells remain the same until he decides to study again and switch them up. Does that unbalance the character?

I'd actually have divine casters work similarly, except that they have no need to prepare anything, and they have access to all the spells appropriate for their level and sphere(s). Divine "spells" are really answers to prayer, and shouldn't really depend on "preparation".

 

[tuxgeo]

I've always viewed the Sorcerer as how the Wizard should have been done.

I had formerly viewed the concept of Sorcery as being nothing more than the concluding word in the phrase, "Swords & (Sorcery)" -- a popular genre of pulp fiction, but not notable in referring to any type of magic in particular.

More lately, however, further research has confused me further.
(Similarly: "Swift chicken is swift." & "Mighty wa is mighty." & "Furious monkey is furious.")

Apparently (according to Wiktionary), the Latin word "sors" means Fate, or Lot -- as in, "the casting of lots."

I guess that the casting of lots might be analogous to the casting of spells; but it reminds me more of the historical method of consulting the I Ching: throw dozens of yarrow stalks up into the air and "clutch at straws": grab as many stalks as come readily to hand. If the count of straws is even, record it as an even result; if odd, as an odd result.
Repeat many times until you have as many odds and evens as needed to make your hexagram; then interpret what fortune is to be foretold in response to the question that was asked. (Wait! Was no question asked? Then, first, get a question to be answered; and then repeat the whole process of throwing yarrow stalks into the air, and clutching at the straws, and recording the results.) ("Folly.")

Beyond that, though, there were laws against "sorcery" in ancient Rome and other places -- in places where the I Ching was never consulted.
Because consulting the I Ching was nation-specific, there had to have been other forms of "sors" or Fate or Lots that could be declared to be illegal in other countries; and it seems to me that Lotteries were an ancient form of Sorcery (based on the keyword "Lot")--and they were illegal because they contributed nothing to the overall weal beyond the removal of money substances from one pocket and the placing of those money substances into another pocket (often, into the pocket of the Sorcerer who conducted the Lottery).