D&D 5E (2014) Sorcerer vs. Wizard: Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better?

[CreamCloud0]

Great idea. Perhaps as a 3rd-level stepping stone to Elemental Affinity at higher levels; first, you can make all your elemental spells your element (perhaps a number of times equal to your Prof bonus), and then later your in-element spells ignore resistance. Turns the Dragon Sorcerer into almost an "elementalist" and thus works well for even non-draconic types that still would be themed around one (e.g. genie).

hmmm, PB uses of free [associated element] transmuted spell feels a little toothless to me (if i understood correctly what you were suggesting), maybe split the difference and say you get to pick PB number of specific spells that you can always transmute to your element free of cost?

 

[cbwjm]

Since damage type rarely matters, why not just allow the draconic sorcerer to cast their energy type spells as the original element or their element at will when they cast? Allows them to always get a small damage bonus when throwing converted fireballs or lightning bolts and still allows them to perhaps target a vulnerability or ignore a resistance if needed by using the original element.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

hmmm, PB uses of free [associated element] transmuted spell feels a little toothless to me (if i understood correctly what you were suggesting), maybe split the difference and say you get to pick PB number of specific spells that you can always transmute to your element free of cost?

I guess? My issue here is that if we go that far, that's giving the Dragon Sorcerer something like 6 free sorcery points per day at level three. E.g., imagine a 4th-level character casts scorching ray with all of his 2nd-level slots and burning hands from all of his 1st-level slots, converting his 4 SP to two extra 1st level spells for more burning hands uses. That's 4+2+2 = 8 sorcery points for free, at level three. Sure, this is someone going HARDCORE for blasting (which is often inefficient), but that's nearly quadrupled (3->11) this character's number of spell points per day. Bump it up to 5th level, now we're looking at 4+3+2 = 9 free points at base, plus (in theory) another 3rd or one each 1st and 2nd for a total of 10-11 bonus points--and the number scales up indefinitely as the character gains more slots.

Picking specific spells doesn't (to my ears) change the impact at all. Even for a Sorcerer who spends half their slots on non-qualifying spells, that's still at least doubling their number of SP/day, which is a very, very hefty power-up.

Perhaps, as an alternative, PB/SR? That way Sorcerers now have a reason to care about short rests (whereas before they simply didn't), and they can still theoretically hit nearly what you're talking about if the party takes lots of short rests (which is good for short-rest classes like Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, or Warlock), but they need to be strategic about it between rests. As their PB grows, they can afford to transmute almost all spells for free, but could still feel a pinch if they went HAM in one fight and couldn't take a short rest before another strikes.

More or less, I still want there to be some tactical choices involved in whether or not one benefits from this. Just an always-on, "all your spells are <X element> now" is too much. Picking PB specific spells for it to apply to just means you'll nearly always have the effect in play. E.g. sorcerous burst as a cantrip and chromatic orb as a 1st-level (which Dragon Sorcerers get for free!) mean you never need to worry about not having enough to always push your "best damage spell of every level, always in my favorite element" button until level 11.

With PB/SR free uses, that's 4-8 expected uses per day at 3rd, rising to 6-12 uses at 5th. (I am of course assuming every party takes a minimum of one SR per LR; other classes pretty much demand that this happen, so I think it's a safe assumption.) If your party skimps on short rests, you might need to dip into your actual SP now and then...but then again, you've made the tactical decision not to rest, so it seems reasonable that there should be a cost to that.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Since damage type rarely matters, why not just allow the draconic sorcerer to cast their energy type spells as the original element or their element at will when they cast? Allows them to always get a small damage bonus when throwing converted fireballs or lightning bolts and still allows them to perhaps target a vulnerability or ignore a resistance if needed by using the original element.

I would prefer to instead actually make damage type matter.

But I also prefer having actual choices, rather than pure calculations or non-choice "it just happens".

 

[EzekielRaiden]

IMHO... What the rules should be.

For wizards, either join school and become a specialist like conjuror or necro which limits spell base by type
OR
Use sorcerer table to limit spell base by number

As far as all missing advanced classes, there could be a standard template based on a special 2/3 + 1/3 multi class that advances by character level with calculated sublevels.

Paladin would become by definition a fighter/cleric(Law and Good Domains)
Fighter level= 2/3 character level rounded up.
Cleric level=1/3 character level rounded down.
This produces a character with nearly the same power as a paladin

All others can be created by same template.
Druid = 2/3 Cleric on Nature Domain+ one more domain, free choice.
+1/3 wizard.

Easy to create 1000 different special classes which are all easy to manage and fair. Minimum 17 charisma to create a cleric mix.
17 constitution to create the others to make sure these are prestige characters

No need for any to have special rules. Agreeing on naming convention is hard.

Warlord = 2/3 Fighter+1/3 cleric on the War Domain.

Ranger= 2/3 Fighter+1/3 cleric on the Nature Domain.

Shadow Knight= 2/3 Fighter+ 1/3 wizard (necromancer)

So many of these. Only problem is agreeing on what to name all the combinations.

Such characters are necessarily dramatically weaker than actual 5e characters--and that's not even counting the heavy over-use of Fighter, which is an incredibly lopsided class to begin with.

It also throws out the window any sort of flavor being attached to these classes. Class fantasy is completely destroyed in this regime for anything that didn't get slapped with the "You Don't Get To Exist" fairy's wand.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I guess? My issue here is that if we go that far, that's giving the Dragon Sorcerer something like 6 free sorcery points per day at level three. E.g., imagine a 4th-level character casts scorching ray with all of his 2nd-level slots and burning hands from all of his 1st-level slots, converting his 4 SP to two extra 1st level spells for more burning hands uses. That's 4+2+2 = 8 sorcery points for free, at level three. Sure, this is someone going HARDCORE for blasting (which is often inefficient), but that's nearly quadrupled (3->11) this character's number of spell points per day. Bump it up to 5th level, now we're looking at 4+3+2 = 9 free points at base, plus (in theory) another 3rd or one each 1st and 2nd for a total of 10-11 bonus points--and the number scales up indefinitely as the character gains more slots.

Picking specific spells doesn't (to my ears) change the impact at all. Even for a Sorcerer who spends half their slots on non-qualifying spells, that's still at least doubling their number of SP/day, which is a very, very hefty power-up.

Perhaps, as an alternative, PB/SR? That way Sorcerers now have a reason to care about short rests (whereas before they simply didn't), and they can still theoretically hit nearly what you're talking about if the party takes lots of short rests (which is good for short-rest classes like Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, or Warlock), but they need to be strategic about it between rests. As their PB grows, they can afford to transmute almost all spells for free, but could still feel a pinch if they went HAM in one fight and couldn't take a short rest before another strikes.

More or less, I still want there to be some tactical choices involved in whether or not one benefits from this. Just an always-on, "all your spells are <X element> now" is too much. Picking PB specific spells for it to apply to just means you'll nearly always have the effect in play. E.g. sorcerous burst as a cantrip and chromatic orb as a 1st-level (which Dragon Sorcerers get for free!) mean you never need to worry about not having enough to always push your "best damage spell of every level, always in my favorite element" button until level 11.

With PB/SR free uses, that's 4-8 expected uses per day at 3rd, rising to 6-12 uses at 5th. (I am of course assuming every party takes a minimum of one SR per LR; other classes pretty much demand that this happen, so I think it's a safe assumption.) If your party skimps on short rests, you might need to dip into your actual SP now and then...but then again, you've made the tactical decision not to rest, so it seems reasonable that there should be a cost to that.

i guess i'm just not seeing that the things you're claiming as problems are actually issues, having your most used spells transmuted is i feel less of a vertical move in power and more of a horizontal one as well as being one that very much feeds into the flavour of the subclass, so i'm not seeing these 'phantom extra sorcery points' as anything that matters, rather they're something i feel i should have had since the begining, if anything the system as is feels to me like needing to pay extra to get the experience you wanted after you already paid admission, if i'm a blue dragon sorcerer i want to be flinging lightning at my foes more turns than not as standard, that's what i picked this subclass for.