D&D 5E (2014) Sorcerer vs. Wizard: Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better?

[EzekielRaiden]

Whether you agree or not, the fact that all powers, no matter the class were fire and forget made them all similar to casters in previous editions. Doesn't matter that they might recharge after an encounter or a day, it all seemed like casters.

Critical, overwhelming problem with this post:

SEEMED LIKE.

Meaning that is your personal perception of what is going on.

It is not the singular objective analysis of what was done there.

I have no interest in re-litigating this for the umpteenth time. Hence: Suffice it to say that this is an extremely controversial take.

Even people who don't like 4e think this is a controversial take.

Could we please, for the love of God and all that is holy, not do this here? Just once? Just once.

 

[cbwjm]

Critical, overwhelming problem with this post:

SEEMED LIKE.

Meaning that is your personal perception of what is going on.

It is not the singular objective analysis of what was done there.

I have no interest in re-litigating this for the umpteenth time. Hence: Suffice it to say that this is an extremely controversial take.

Even people who don't like 4e think this is a controversial take.

Could we please, for the love of God and all that is holy, not do this here? Just once? Just once.

Yes, it is my personal perception, this is a forum, it's all opinion. I don't care if you agree, I don't even think this is controversial. I also don't think this makes 4e a bad game, but feel is important and all classes felt like caster to me and many others.

 

[CreamCloud0]

while i also think that wizard could pretty much just get absorbed and have it's role served by one well-constructed sorcerer subclass with a spellbook feature i do think wizard and sorcerer are different, however i do think they needed to lean much harder into integrating metamagic into the subclasses, for instance, perhaps all draconic sorcerers just know the transmute spell metamagic and can cast it for free to convert any spell into their associated draconic element, no more worrying about your blue dragon sorcerer with like three lighting spells! or divine soul has reduced cost to quicken any abjuration or healing spell... those sorts of things.

 

[Bri]

IMHO... What the rules should be.

For wizards, either join school and become a specialist like conjuror or necro which limits spell base by type
OR
Use sorcerer table to limit spell base by number

As far as all missing advanced classes, there could be a standard template based on a special 2/3 + 1/3 multi class that advances by character level with calculated sublevels.

Paladin would become by definition a fighter/cleric(Law and Good Domains)
Fighter level= 2/3 character level rounded up.
Cleric level=1/3 character level rounded down.
This produces a character with nearly the same power as a paladin

All others can be created by same template.
Druid = 2/3 Cleric on Nature Domain+ one more domain, free choice.
+1/3 wizard.

Easy to create 1000 different special classes which are all easy to manage and fair. Minimum 17 charisma to create a cleric mix.
17 constitution to create the others to make sure these are prestige characters

No need for any to have special rules. Agreeing on naming convention is hard.

Warlord = 2/3 Fighter+1/3 cleric on the War Domain.

Ranger= 2/3 Fighter+1/3 cleric on the Nature Domain.

Shadow Knight= 2/3 Fighter+ 1/3 wizard (necromancer)

So many of these. Only problem is agreeing on what to name all the combinations.

 

[Muh]

Considering the warlord came out in 4e, they were most definitely a non magical spellcaster, because everyone was a spellcaster with limit "slots" in the way of encounter and daily powers.

Powers are not spells and unless explicitly called out as magical, they are non magical. Thus they are not spells either and for that reason users of such powers are not spell casters (unless they have actual spells available too). Otherwise the 5E fighter is a wizard for having superiority dice and indomitable (a spell limited to reactions)

 

[James Gasik]

I always found the "everyone is a spellcaster in 4e" to be a bit odd.

Last I checked, before 4e, casters didn't have at-will spells (cantrips were limited in daily use outside of Pathfinder. I guess you could count the 3.5 Warlock and Dragonfire Adept? Maybe?) and didn't have encounter spells either.

So the argument was always centered around Daily powers being "magical" somehow, as in it didn't make sense for non-spellcasters to have such things, as if a level 1 Barbarian wasn't restricted to one Rage per diem or something.

So it really came down to "everyone has the same power structure" and "some powers of one class are similar to ones of another class", to which 1) so what. It's like there aren't abilities shared by multiple classes before 4e (hint, there were) and 2) that all classes in 4e had the same power structure (hint, they didn't).

 

[Scribe]

A melee attack is a spell with Range = Reach, that requires a weapon in hand (else it's an unarmed attack)

At certain levels of abstraction that's just how it is.

"Every MTG mechanic is kicker."

 

[cbwjm]

Powers are not spells and unless explicitly called out as magical, they are non magical. Thus they are not spells either and for that reason users of such powers are not spell casters (unless they have actual spells available too). Otherwise the 5E fighter is a wizard for having superiority dice and indomitable (a spell limited to reactions)

Eh, whatever you want to call them, the feel of it to me was just like everyone being a caster.

 

[James Gasik]

Just wait until 7e, when Wizards add "spell effects" to weapon attacks and can only use so many "spell effects" before they have to take a nap. Maybe then everyone will feel like being a Fighter.