Sorcerors, daggers, and post essentials expertise feats

[BobTheNob]

Just tried putting together a Sorceror. Now, I love the "dagger sorceror" so I thought "Yea, lets do one of those!"

Then I discovered something. New essentials expertise feats...the way of the future. Acknowledgment by WOTC that they stuffed up the maths and so they compensate by feat tax with rebate. i.e. Expertise feats that not only fix the math, but give a nice little rider as well. All in all, when these feats hit the scene, I threw my house rules out, because they at last fixed the problem in a way I was satisfied with.

Back to my sorceror. So I say "Ok, light blade expertise!", only to discover that it is weapon attacks only! So whereas the staff (the other native sorceror option) sais weapon AND implement, the light blade doesnt. This leaves the dagger sorceror out in the cold and relegated to the older CRAPIER (/feat tax) expertise feats.

So, even though light blade is one of the sorceror native implements, your better going staff, cause at least the up to date support is there for it! (And frankly, the rider it gets is plumb sensational)

Question 1 : I personally view this as a bit of a hole in the current rules. Does anyone agree with this interpretation?

Question 2 : I was thinking a house rule where Light blade expertise a) Applies to implement attacks as well and b) When used as an implement, works the same way as Sorcerous Blade Channeling (which is about on par with what Staff expertise does). Assuming you agree with point 1, would you view this as an adequate house rule solution?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I agree that it's a hole, but combining it with Sorcerous Blade Channeling seems a bit too potent for my tastes. Sorcerous Blade Channeling is kind of good on it's own.

I'd say maybe a flat damage bonus that scales (+1/+2/+3) or potentially some Resistance-overcoming feature (lowers energy resistance of all types by 2/4/6). Something that plays into a Sorcerer's theme (damage damage damage damage!), while keeping the format of the Essentials implement expertise feats (Orb [Control], Staff [Defensive Spellcasting], Wand [Accurate], and Rod [Melee]).

But, really, it's not too bad even if you do combine them. Whatever works for your table, ultimately.

 

[BobTheNob]

Nice, nice. Alternate theme, like it. Treat the dagger as the "Damage" choice. I was also thinking the current light blade expertise rider (+1/2/3 damage vs CA) could just apply equally.

 

[Klaus]

Just tried putting together a Sorceror. Now, I love the "dagger sorceror" so I thought "Yea, lets do one of those!"

Then I discovered something. New essentials expertise feats...the way of the future. Acknowledgment by WOTC that they stuffed up the maths and so they compensate by feat tax with rebate. i.e. Expertise feats that not only fix the math, but give a nice little rider as well. All in all, when these feats hit the scene, I threw my house rules out, because they at last fixed the problem in a way I was satisfied with.

Back to my sorceror. So I say "Ok, light blade expertise!", only to discover that it is weapon attacks only! So whereas the staff (the other native sorceror option) sais weapon AND implement, the light blade doesnt. This leaves the dagger sorceror out in the cold and relegated to the older CRAPIER (/feat tax) expertise feats.

So, even though light blade is one of the sorceror native implements, your better going staff, cause at least the up to date support is there for it! (And frankly, the rider it gets is plumb sensational)

Question 1 : I personally view this as a bit of a hole in the current rules. Does anyone agree with this interpretation?

Question 2 : I was thinking a house rule where Light blade expertise a) Applies to implement attacks as well and b) When used as an implement, works the same way as Sorcerous Blade Channeling (which is about on par with what Staff expertise does). Assuming you agree with point 1, would you view this as an adequate house rule solution?

The sorcerer powers I wrote for the Dragon article "Shivs of Sorcery" are Weapon, not Implement.

 

[ppaladin123]

I agree that it's a hole, but combining it with Sorcerous Blade Channeling seems a bit too potent for my tastes. Sorcerous Blade Channeling is kind of good on it's own.

I'd say maybe a flat damage bonus that scales (+1/+2/+3) or potentially some Resistance-overcoming feature (lowers energy resistance of all types by 2/4/6). Something that plays into a Sorcerer's theme (damage damage damage damage!), while keeping the format of the Essentials implement expertise feats (Orb [Control], Staff [Defensive Spellcasting], Wand [Accurate], and Rod [Melee]).

But, really, it's not too bad even if you do combine them. Whatever works for your table, ultimately.

Well, staff expertise gives the +1/+2/+3 feat bonus to attacks, lets you cast in melee without having to worry about opportunity attacks and it covers area attacks as well as ranged attacks. Sorcerous blade channeling only covers ranged attacks. I don't think it would be overpowered to attach a +1/+2/+3 feat bonus to attacks to sorcerous blade channeling.

 

[BobTheNob]

The sorcerer powers I wrote for the Dragon article "Shivs of Sorcery" are Weapon, not Implement.

I did read that article, and like it much. But Im not speaking specifically relating to the powers therein, more about the existing implement powers. I just thematically enjoy the image of my dagger weilder over a staff weilder, and would enjoy if the rules could back the theme.

The actual sorceror I put together still used alot of implement powers. But as it stands, I find the dagger to simply be a lesser choice purely by virtue of the other implement option and its expertise feat (staff) being ridiculously superior, and the only justification for this vast gap is that essentials classes to date havent incorporated dagger implements.

I cant think of a rational argument for daggers being an inferior implement choice for the sorceror (when using implement powers). Implement expertise vs Essentials expertise is no comparison, and I view implement expertise as mistake to cover over another mistake, and only now that essentials style expertise has come along that they have finally plugged the hole...

Except for dagger implements that is.

 

[renau1g]

Sorcerers aren't the only ones with the "hole". All Weapon/IMplement users are hurt (Arificers, assassins (who have ki focus also), paladins (in some cases), bards (in some cases), swordmages, etc.) as well as those post-PHB1 implement users not covered by current Essentials (totems & tomes come to mind).

Hopefully they'll fix it soon, like they're going to do for racial modifiers.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Yeah, sooner or later, this will be fixed, as its a pretty obvious gap, and one that people have been griping about ever since Heroes of the Fallen Lands hit the shelf back in September or whenever it was.

Given the attention that seems to be going into this sort of thing behind the scenes right now, it could be sooner than we think.

Given the track record for the past 6 months about how things actually turn out, it could be much, much later than we think.

I'll hope for the former, but assume the latter, so that I'm not disappointed in the end.

 

[DracoSuave]

I wouldn't say that classes not covered by the new Expertise feats are hurt, they just aren't helped yet. Effective classes are not made ineffective by adding these new feats. It's not like the sorcerer is magically made into an ineffective casting machine, and that the dagger build is now crippled forever because the staff builds have the ability to cast in melee.

If Staff of Ruin can't put dagger-sorcerers in the coffin, Staff Expertise certainly won't.

Honestly, if the existance or non-existance of a new Expertise feat is a dealbreaker for a class, then the problem isn't the existance of a new feat. Not only that, expecting everything to come together and be fixed immediately is asking for a bit much.

Lastly, Versatile Expertise still covers anyone using more than one accessory type just fine. If it's a big deal, just change the progression to 1/11/21 and call it a day.

 

[renau1g]

I wouldn't say that classes not covered by the new Expertise feats are hurt, they just aren't helped yet. Effective classes are not made ineffective by adding these new feats. It's not like the sorcerer is magically made into an ineffective casting machine, and that the dagger build is now crippled forever because the staff builds have the ability to cast in melee.

Yes they are hurt. The new expertise feats kick in at 11th and 21st, the old ones at 15th and 25th. So for 40% of Paragon and 40% of Epic (or 8 out of a possible 30 game levels, or just over 25% of your career) they'll be at +1 to hit on top of their other benefits. I'd say they're hurt, but that's just me.

I mean they're not dead, but again you're suffering a 5% reduction in to hit (which for a multi-attacker like sorcerer will come into play more often)