Sorcerors, daggers, and post essentials expertise feats

[Al'Kelhar]

Yes they are hurt. The new expertise feats kick in at 11th and 21st, the old ones at 15th and 25th. So for 40% of Paragon and 40% of Epic (or 8 out of a possible 30 game levels, or just over 25% of your career) they'll be at +1 to hit on top of their other benefits. I'd say they're hurt, but that's just me.

No, they're not hurt. They are no worse off than they were before the new expertise feats.

Being relatively less well off does not mean they are hurt.

Adam and Ben like watching HD-DVDs, but do not have plasma TVs. Adam buys a plasma TV. Ben is not hurt by Adam's purchase. Ben might be annoyed that Adam now has relative advantage in watching HD-DVDs, but Ben is in no worse position than he was before Adam bought his plasma TV.

It's the whole "keeping up with the Joneses" envy thing.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes they are hurt. The new expertise feats kick in at 11th and 21st, the old ones at 15th and 25th. So for 40% of Paragon and 40% of Epic (or 8 out of a possible 30 game levels, or just over 25% of your career) they'll be at +1 to hit on top of their other benefits. I'd say they're hurt, but that's just me.

I mean they're not dead, but again you're suffering a 5% reduction in to hit (which for a multi-attacker like sorcerer will come into play more often)

Actually, it's less than 5%.

From 1-10, it's 0%.
From 11-14, it's 5%
From 15-20, it's 0%.

You see where this is going, I'll spare the rest, but basically sum up.

8/30 X 1/20 = 8/600 = 1/75 = a smidgeon over 1%.

And that is not 'you are hurt by 1%' that is 'someone else has 1% advantage.'

If you are complaining about 1% advantage in a tabletop roleplaying game... re-examine your priorities. Seriously.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As there is nothing to complain, i still think there is an unintended hole.

A simple master at arms like feat for implement users would be a cure.
Also not the expertise attack bonuses were boring, but the weapon focus damage feats were the problem.
So i hope they just cut the word "weapon" from those feats and call it a day.

 

[renau1g]

Actually, it's less than 5%.

From 1-10, it's 0%.
From 11-14, it's 5%
From 15-20, it's 0%.

You see where this is going, I'll spare the rest, but basically sum up.

8/30 X 1/20 = 8/600 = 1/75 = a smidgeon over 1%.

And that is not 'you are hurt by 1%' that is 'someone else has 1% advantage.'

If you are complaining about 1% advantage in a tabletop roleplaying game... re-examine your priorities. Seriously.

I'm not complaining about a 1% advantage. You stated they're not hurt. I stated they are. A counter point to your own.

Seriously, calm the eff down yourself with personal attacks bro. Do you know me and know my priorities? Didn't think so, so maybe instead actually just respond, which you did in the first section of your post. I'm just pointing out facts. For those levels there's a 5% difference. Is it a big deal? No. Is it a factual point of reference? Yes.

re: Al'Kelhar's post. Actually, they still can be "hurt" in the situation because if say 4/5 of the party get the cool new expertise feats, but poor ol' dagger sorcerer is stuck with Versatile Expertise. The DM sees the party hitting more often and bumps up monsters defenses, or higher level monsters, suddenly sorcerer isn't hitting as often and is further behind the curve. Therefore, I would argue he is hurt. It's dependent on your view of the situation I suppose. Just like if you lived in a town and suddenly everyone but you gained a million dollars suddenly. Technically, you're no worse off, but if suddenly inflation goes way up due to increased purchasing power of others, your own power goes down. If you look at it in a vacuum, sure you are no worse off than before, but if you consider reactions to the situation there's a likelihood of being harmed. Again, differences in opinions I suppose.

 

[Mengu]

They are not hurt, but there is an obvious advantage to those that do get the cool and nifty expertise feats. Spear, light blade, and staff in particular are fairly potent expertise feats. It's not just the dagger sorcerer that got left out in this regard. In my game, half my party, a totem user, a holy symbol user, and a dagger user didn't get an essentials caliber expertise feat. Previously I was giving expertise for free, between the new CB, and this imbalance of expertise feats, I ditched the free feat, and am just adjusting monster defenses accordingly.

Here is a quick list of expertise issues that need to be taken care of for existing classes:

Dagger implement (for sorcerers, pact dagger warlocks, and maybe some small swordmages)
Light/Heavy blade implement (swordmages, and some multiclass or AIP users)
Totem (Shaman and Druid though the Druids prefer staff typically)
Holy Symbol
Ki
Tome
Spear implement (for Alfsair spear)
Hammer implement (for pact hammer/disrupting hammer users)
Mace implement (Totemic Warclub, etc. yes this is getting ridiculous)

And there is the issue of separate implement and weapon users, which versatile expertise used to take care of, namely Paladins.

And there is the odd two implement user such as wizards with an orb and a staff (there is no equivalent of Master at Arms for the implement user).

I don't think Essentials "got it right", on how to handle the expertise tax.

 

[Herschel]

And I'm a Swordmage player.

 

[Marshall]

I wouldn't say that classes not covered by the new Expertise feats are hurt, they just aren't helped yet. Effective classes are not made ineffective by adding these new feats. It's not like the sorcerer is magically made into an ineffective casting machine, and that the dagger build is now crippled forever because the staff builds have the ability to cast in melee.

If it was only the expertise feats that got this treatment, it wouldnt be a 'hurt' but since they extended it to the 'focus' feats also its actually quite painful. After many errata and new feats meant to remove the double dip penalty to weapliment users the new essentials feats went all the way back to point of release 4e and separated Imp/Weap into separate feats again.
Why they finally get around to releasing Implement Focus for non-weapliment users and then gut Weapon Focus at the same time is astonishingly short-sighted.

If Staff of Ruin can't put dagger-sorcerers in the coffin, Staff Expertise certainly won't.

It actually might. You get a Weapon reach bonus and an Implement OA guard in the same feat. Its really nice.
If they would reduce the cost of the Element Shift weapons to something reasonable, energized weapons would give SoR a run for its money. Its just ridiculous that lightning/flaming is a +5 enhancement for no real benefit.

Honestly, if the existance or non-existance of a new Expertise feat is a dealbreaker for a class, then the problem isn't the existance of a new feat. Not only that, expecting everything to come together and be fixed immediately is asking for a bit much.

Lastly, Versatile Expertise still covers anyone using more than one accessory type just fine. If it's a big deal, just change the progression to 1/11/21 and call it a day.

Its not that its a deal breaker, its that the changes to the design are contradictory and actually damaging to a range of classes. If you want to go conspiracy, its only damaging to a range of classes that havent been reprinted in essentials and those that have been got the enhanced feat(staff) or got class features that made the new feats auto-versatile for them(Hexblade)

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Being relatively less well off does not mean they are hurt.

Unless the DM decides that "the PCs" are hitting a bit too often and adjusts defenses upwards to compensate. Statistical changes don't happen in a vacuum.

Adam and Ben like watching HD-DVDs, but do not have plasma TVs. Adam buys a plasma TV. Ben is not hurt by Adam's purchase. Ben might be annoyed that Adam now has relative advantage in watching HD-DVDs, but Ben is in no worse position than he was before Adam bought his plasma TV.

Adam, and the others who buy plasma TVs, so distort the television market by their impulsive purchases that DVD manufacturers begin to adjust their products to look better on plasma TVs at the expense of looking slightly worse on non-plasma TVs. Ben starts to notice that the new DVDs he purchases don't seem to look as good as the old ones, goes to Adam's house (purely by coincidence) and gouges out Adam's eyeballs in a fit of rage.

Storytelling is fun! Too bad about Adam though... He should have bought lottery tickets instead.