Special attack actions and grapples

[Old Nick]

First of all, apologies if these questions have been raised before, but I don’t recall them.

Let us suppose that two heroic adventurers, A and B, are proceeding along when they encounter nasty evil person (or monster) C. C proceeds to grapple A.

My questions relate to the possible effects of actions that B might choose to take. (Incidentally, although various options were discussed, in the actual encounter giving rise to these musings, I’m glad to say that B chose simply to beat C repeatedly with his axe, so I didn’t have to rule on any of these!)

Question 1

If B chose to trip C – and was successful – what would be the result?

Clearly C would be prone. But would this automatically break his grapple? (I would rule not.) Would the –4 melee roll modifier for being prone apply to C’s grapple checks?

Question 2

If B chose to bull rush C – and was successful – what would be the result?

Would it automatically break the grapple – i.e. A would be left in the square where the grapple had taken place, and only C would have been pushed away?

Would A automatically be moved with C?

Would C get the chance to make a grapple check as if he were trying to move A?

I think I would go with the last option, although it may not really conform to the RAW – particularly as it gives C an opposed grapple check against A on B’s move! It gives some reward to a successful manoeuvre by B, but not too much (which I think would be the case with saying it would automatically break the grapple). I would also add the caveat that if B chose to try and bull rush A, C could still resist.

Question 3

Can B use the aid another action, with the +2 bonus to A’s next attack roll being applied to his next grapple check? Or must B opt to join the grapple – even though, as I read the multiple grapplers mechanic, that only allows for C having to make grapple checks against both A and B individually and doesn’t allow for an aid another type mechanic whereby two allies working together might achieve a higher grapple check than they can do as individuals.

 

[drunkmoogle]

Er... thing with the names is that I tend to think clearer with names as opposed to letters.

Let us suppose that two heroic adventurers, A[lice] and B[ob], are proceeding along when they encounter nasty evil person (or monster) C[hris]. C[hris] proceeds to grapple A[lice].

1) If Bob chose to trip Chris – and was successful – what would be the result?

Chris would be prone, having no effect on the grapple. He would suffer the standard penalties for being prone.

2) If Bob chose to bull rush Chris – and was successful – what would be the result? Would Alice automatically be moved with Chris? Would Chris get the chance to make a grapple check as if he were trying to move Alice?

There's nothing that suggests a successful bull rush moves more than one creature, so Chris would be pushed back. If this movement causes Chris to move in such a way so that Alice does not occupy one of his squares, then the grapple is broken, much like the grapple would be broken if Bob Teleported Alice away from Chris. The third option would be a viable house rule, but moving in a grapple is considered an Action, so you can only take that on your turn.

3) Can Bob use the aid another action, with the +2 bonus to Alice’s next attack roll being applied to his next grapple check?

Not by the RAW, but the rules do say this:

You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check.

I believe most games would allow it.

 

[Old Nick]

Thanks for the comments.

Chris would be prone, having no effect on the grapple. He would suffer the standard penalties for being prone.

Yes, but . . . and maybe I'm being a tad pedantic here . . . the standard penalties for being prone are applied to melee attack rolls and AC. Not to grapple checks, which are not quite the same thing. Hence the original question.

There's nothing that suggests a successful bull rush moves more than one creature, so Chris would be pushed back. If this movement causes Chris to move in such a way so that Alice does not occupy one of his squares, then the grapple is broken, much like the grapple would be broken if Bob Teleported Alice away from Chris. The third option would be a viable house rule, but moving in a grapple is considered an Action, so you can only take that on your turn.

I take your point about bull rush only affecting one creature, but I'm not sure that I like the idea of a bull rush causing a risk-free automatic end to the grapple.

To try and illustrate what I mean, visualise this: Your ally and an enemy are locked in a grapple on the edge of a cliff. If you barged into the enemy, would you be confident that he would disappear over teh cliff without taking your ally with him?

 

[MerakSpielman]

I wonder - would the Trip and Bull Rush attacks have a chance of hitting the wrong grappler?

 

[Egres]

I wonder - would the Trip and Bull Rush attacks have a chance of hitting the wrong grappler?

No,that chance applies only for ranged attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, but . . . and maybe I'm being a tad pedantic here . . . the standard penalties for being prone are applied to melee attack rolls and AC. Not to grapple checks, which are not quite the same thing. Hence the original question.

Right. It's debated.

The 3.5 Main FAQ actually specifically mentions a -4 penalty on grapple checks for being prone, which is cited by the "'It's like an attack roll' means it's like an attack roll" camp as evidence that anything that provides a modifier to attack rolls also modifies grapple checks, with the sole exception of Size modifier vs Special Size modifier.

The other camp is "It's like an attack roll' means it's like an attack roll, but not an attack roll", and thus nothing that affects only attack rolls affects a grapple check, including the Prone penalty (and thus the FAQ is in error).

-Hyp.

 

[Stormrunner]

I would use common sense (something all rules lawyers hate).

If Chris has successfully grappled Alice, then anything which physically moves Chris (Trip, Bull Rush, levitate) moves Alice too, unless Chris chooses to let go. If Chris is Tripped, Alice falls prone too. If Chris is Bull Rushed over the cliff, Alice falls too.
Depending on relative size, the fact that Chris is dragging the weight of Alice along with him may make it harder for Bob to Trip or Bull Rush Chris, especially if Chris and Alice are approximately the same size. (If Chris the Colossal Dragon is holding Alice the halfling in one claw, Bob's chance (ha!) of Bull Rushing Chris is unlikely to be affected.)
If Chris is already grappling Alice, and both fall prone, I see no reason why he should suffer any penalty to maintain the grapple in subsequent rounds. If he tried to start a NEW grapple with a different opponent, then I'd apply the -4 penalty on his roll to hit (but not to the grapple check).