Special Conversion Thread: Finishing off the oozes

[Big Mac]

Replenishing from the wall is an idea I could buy.

If these guys climbed back into the wall when they were not in use it could "refuel" them. If the wall carried around burning zombies and spat them out during (or prior to) combat, I'd be sold on the idea of them lasting forever (or until destroyed in combat).

A mechanic like that would stop a wall from having its own ever expanding army.

 

[Cleon]

Replenishing from the wall is an idea I could buy.

If these guys climbed back into the wall when they were not in use it could "refuel" them. If the wall carried around burning zombies and spat them out during (or prior to) combat, I'd be sold on the idea of them lasting forever (or until destroyed in combat).

A mechanic like that would stop a wall from having its own ever expanding army.

Yup, I was wondering about having the burning zombies replenished by returning to the wall and maybe having a 'burn out' time outside the wall. That would limit their numbers to the wall's engulf capacity.

The original module has burning zombies wandering about the labyrinth and makes no mention of them ever returning to the walls, which would imply that they can last a long time outside the wall that created them. I do like the image of a wall attacking by vomiting pseudopods and flaming corpses, so I'd like them to be stored/refueled by climbing back into the wall.

 

[Cleon]

Why don't we give the burning zombies fire immunity?

Also, why not keep the single action quality from the regular zombie?

Although Carnivorous Walls have an "immune to fire" Special Defence in the original stats, burning zombies do not. There is also no mention of them having the sluggishness of standard zombies (they don't always lose initiative like common zombies did in 1st/2nd edition AD&D). Hence, I did not propose to give them fire immunity or the single action quality.

However, it does say the flaming liquid does no damage to the zombie - so I think the best solution is to give them immunity to the flaming liquid of carnivorous walls and burning zombies, rather than a general immunity/resistance to fire.

Burning zombie (5): AC 7; MV 6; HD 2; hp 48, 44, 36, 32 (x2); THAC019; #AT 1; Dmg 1d4 (bite) + 1d6 (flame damage); SD immune to mind-affecting spells; SZ M (5'-6' tall); ML special (never checks morale); Int non (0); AL N; XP 120.
Note: Burning zombies have the same hit points as the wall that created them, but only attack as 2-hit die monsters. Their heads exude the same flaming liquid as the walls, doing no damage to the zombie but adding 1d6 points of heat damage to their bit attack. These "zombies" are not undead and cannot be turned. A burning zombie that is raised or resurrected requires a week of best rest or a heal or regenerate spell to recover fully.

Hmm, I just realized I forgot to add the rest period for burning zombies that have been returned to life to my proposed template. I'd better re-edit it.

 

[Big Mac]

Yup, I was wondering about having the burning zombies replenished by returning to the wall and maybe having a 'burn out' time outside the wall. That would limit their numbers to the wall's engulf capacity.

Sounds like we are on the same page here. I'm not sure if everyone will agreee, but to me it makes more sense for Burning Zombies to be an extension of the Carnivorous Wall. (In a way, they remind me of the Shivak creatures that serve The Spelljammer.)

The original module has burning zombies wandering about the labyrinth and makes no mention of them ever returning to the walls, which would imply that they can last a long time outside the wall that created them. I do like the image of a wall attacking by vomiting pseudopods and flaming corpses, so I'd like them to be stored/refueled by climbing back into the wall.

You know, looking at the Burining Zombies I have to wonder what the point is. Why would the wall go to all the effort of creating zombie-like creatures that wander off and don't provide it with any benifit.

I think that the Burning Zombies should have a Shivak-like function and should aid the wall in some way. Considering that the Carnivorous Wall is fairly immobile the Burning Zombies could help it eat.

How about they pick up dead, dying or unconcious humanoids, take them back to their walls and then drag them inside? Behavior like this would sell them as being in a symbiotic relationship with the wall. And if a PC's cohort got knocked out and grabbed, this sort of thing could provide some interesting tension in an encounter.

It might even be fun to have large Burning Zombies grapple smaller opponants and try to manhandle them back to their wall while they were still alive and kicking.

Although Carnivorous Walls have an "immune to fire" Special Defence in the original stats, burning zombies do not. There is also no mention of them having the sluggishness of standard zombies (they don't always lose initiative like common zombies did in 1st/2nd edition AD&D). Hence, I did not propose to give them fire immunity or the single action quality.

However, it does say the flaming liquid does no damage to the zombie - so I think the best solution is to give them immunity to the flaming liquid of carnivorous walls and burning zombies, rather than a general immunity/resistance to fire.

I've just realised the blurb says their heads are coated with the liquid but only their bite causes fire damage. That doesn't seem logical to me. Why can't they do punching damage with fists of fire? Why can't they headbutt for flaming damage?

Maybe it would be more appropriate to put the fire inside the creatures and have flames pouring out of their mouth when they open it.

 

[Cleon]

*snip*
Why would the wall go to all the effort of creating zombie-like creatures that wander off and don't provide it with any benifit.

I think that the Burning Zombies should have a Shivak-like function and should aid the wall in some way. Considering that the Carnivorous Wall is fairly immobile the Burning Zombies could help it eat.

How about they pick up dead, dying or unconcious humanoids, take them back to their walls and then drag them inside? Behavior like this would sell them as being in a symbiotic relationship with the wall. And if a PC's cohort got knocked out and grabbed, this sort of thing could provide some interesting tension in an encounter.

It might even be fun to have large Burning Zombies grapple smaller opponants and try to manhandle them back to their wall while they were still alive and kicking.

Definitely. The burning zombies should be mindless tools of the Carnivorous Wall that spawned them, else why would it create them? A 'wandering monster' burning zombie is presumably hunting for prey to feed its wall. Burning zombies may well grapple victims to drag them to into their wall - you'd need a Huge carnivorous wall to create a Large burning zombie, of course, since it will need to be able to Engulf it.

I've just realised the blurb says their heads are coated with the liquid but only their bite causes fire damage. That doesn't seem logical to me. Why can't they do punching damage with fists of fire? Why can't they headbutt for flaming damage?

Maybe it would be more appropriate to put the fire inside the creatures and have flames pouring out of their mouth when they open it.

The original blurb says what it says. There's no mention of the flaming liquid flowing down to its limbs, hence it doesn't have 'fists of fire' - I suppose they could have a flaming head-butt instead, though.

Since I'm currently treating the flaming bite as as Extraordinary power I'm presuming the zombie likely has an internal reservoir/source of 'flaming liquid', which just oozes out of its head openings and ignites on contact with the oxygen in the air. It may be a purely supernatural power, but the original text implies a physical explanation.

 

[freyar]

If you don't like immunity to fire, I think we're still ok. Aren't creatures always immune to their own special attacks unless otherwise stated?

Don't you think the rest period for burning zombies returned to life is reasonably well taken care of by the usual negative level mechanic?

Regarding the refueling time, etc, why don't we say that they must spend 1 day/X time to refuel their flame? And we can always say that a carnivorous wall can control X number of zombies at a time. But I think beyond that, we're really getting into flavor and/or DM discretion.

 

[Big Mac]

<snip>

Don't you think the rest period for burning zombies returned to life is reasonably well taken care of by the usual negative level mechanic?

Negative level mechanic? I'm not sure how this would apply to these constructs. I'm not saying it won't work, but I'm lost. Please tell me more.

Regarding the refueling time, etc, why don't we say that they must spend 1 day/X time to refuel their flame? And we can always say that a carnivorous wall can control X number of zombies at a time. But I think beyond that, we're really getting into flavor and/or DM discretion.

I don't want to hobble the Burning Zombie, just make it "return to base" on a regular basis. I think that resting time (as per a spellcaster) within the wall would be enough (or maybe more than enough) to charge them up for an entire day.

In encounter terms, this means they wouldn't run out of fire during a combat, but would be more likely to be found within the wall, where they could jump out behind the PCs after they walk past the wall.

 

[freyar]

I just mean that normally after being raised, you have a negative level. That's all. So that there's no need to put in an additional requirement to rest if you were a burning zombie and then raised.

 

[Shade]

While I like the template, I'm not sure it is really necessary. Perhaps we can just create abbreviated statblocks for sample burning zombies of appropriate size (using the template as a guideline), and fix the Hit Dice, so as to not overcomplicate the creature? Since the wall is only 8 HD, and probably won't advance much (since they get bigger by linking with others), I'd imagine they won't kill creatures much more powerful than themselves.

 

[Big Mac]

I just mean that normally after being raised, you have a negative level. That's all. So that there's no need to put in an additional requirement to rest if you were a burning zombie and then raised.

Thanks for the clarification.

I suppose the designers were thinking about the internal damage caused by the flaming liquid, but the magic that brings you back from the dead would need to negate that to stop you dying again. I don't see a need for this to have effects beyond the stage where you bring someone back from the dead.

A higher DC to raise someone would be an argument I'd consider. But after effects don't really make sense to me.

(Or to cut a long story short - I agree. )