Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

Cleon · Jan 27, 2021

Cleon said:
First option — just give it everything!:

A weredrake in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons; the bite attack becomes a gore attack if the base dragon has a gore attack but no bite attack. If the base dragon has additional natural attacks such as wing, tail or sting attacks, it gains those attacks when in hybrid form. If the base dragon has more than two claw attacks, its hybrid form can only wield weapons in two of its claws.

Second option — it only gains an additional natural attack if it has a Special Attack that employs it:

A weredrake in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons; the bite attack becomes a gore attack if the base dragon has a gore attack but no bite attack. If the base dragon has a special attack tied to another natural weapon, such as the poison of a wyvern's sting attack or the tail sweep of a Huge albino wyrm's tail-slap attack, it also gains that natural attack when in hybrid form.

I suppose there's Third Options that are between the two extremes — like it auto-gains any natural attack that is a primary attack or is better than a regular secondary attack due to some an intrinsic advantage like increased Reach, ×1 or ×1.5 damage bonus, augmented critical et cetera.

freyar · Feb 25, 2021

The "template caveat" you propose looks fine to me!

I'll take door #2, I mean option #2. Makes the hybrids a bit simpler.

Cleon · Feb 26, 2021

freyar said:
The "template caveat" you propose looks fine to me!

I'll take door #2, I mean option #2. Makes the hybrids a bit simpler.

Updating the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

I rephrased "type by virtue of a template or similar means (such as a half-dragon otyugh)" to "by virtue of a template (such as a half-dragon otyugh) or similar means" since half-dragon is a template not a similar means!

So damage next I suppose.

Shall we use a modified version of the True Dragon table for the claw/bite/whatever damage?

For the "special melee attack" presumably they do the same damage as the base dragon, but adjusted for size if the hybrid form is a size bigger or littler.

freyar · Apr 5, 2021

Sounds reasonable (on the base dragon)!

So, damage would be "Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the drakanthrope is in." with a table for the hybrid based on the True Dragon table? I could go for that, maybe with a caveat that it's the lesser of the table or base dragon damage for any attack shared by both (what if the base dragon doesn't have claws or a bite?!?!). How did you want to modify this table from the True Dragon?

Cleon · Apr 5, 2021

freyar said:
Sounds reasonable (on the base dragon)!

So, damage would be "Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the drakanthrope is in." with a table for the hybrid based on the True Dragon table? I could go for that, maybe with a caveat that it's the lesser of the table or base dragon damage for any attack shared by both (what if the base dragon doesn't have claws or a bite?!?!). How did you want to modify this table from the True Dragon?

[So, if we set the damage to be the Claw and Bite columns from the SRD's Dragon Space/Reach, Attacks, and Damage table it'd be something like:]

Damage: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is in. The hybrid form’s attacks deal damage equal to the base dragon or as indicated in the Hybrid Form Damage Table, whichever is higher.

Hybrid Form Damage Table

Hybrid Size	Claw	Bite
Tiny	1d3	1d4
Small	1d4	1d6
Medium	1d6	1d8
Large	1d8	2d6
Huge	2d6	2d8
Gargantuan	2d8	4d6
Colossal	4d6	4d8

[That's basically one damage step higher than the Lycanthrope's Hybrid Size damage table.

However the original Weredragons had "Their bites and clawed hands each do 1d6 points of damage", which'd suggest only the Claw attacks are increased, suggesting the following:]

Damage: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is in. The hybrid form’s attacks deal damage as indicated in the Hybrid Form Damage Table.

Hybrid Form Damage Table

Hybrid Size	Claw & Bite	Other Attacks
Tiny	1d3	As base dragon
Small	1d4	As base dragon
Medium	1d6	As base dragon
Large	1d8	As base dragon
Huge	2d6	As base dragon
Gargantuan	2d8	As base dragon
Colossal	4d6	As base dragon

Do you have any preferences?

Cleon · Apr 5, 2021

Come to think of it, we should include something along the lines of the Lycanthrope template's "A hybrid may attack with a weapon and a bite, or may attack with its natural weapons. The bite attack of a hybrid is a secondary attack."

How about "In hybrid form a weredrake may attack with just its natural weapons, or wield weapons with one of both of its claws while making secondary attacks with its remaining natural weapons."?

freyar · May 7, 2021

Going in reverse, I like the line on the secondary attacks.

I could go with either table, though I'd prefer that the damage be the lesser of the table or the base dragon damage (it just doesn't seem right to get better natural attack damage in hybrid form compared to dragon form!). We should also change "base animal" to "base dragon" at the start of the entry.

Cleon · May 7, 2021

freyar said:
Going in reverse, I like the line on the secondary attacks.

I've updated the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft.

freyar said:
I could go with either table, though I'd prefer that the damage be the lesser of the table or the base dragon damage (it just doesn't seem right to get better natural attack damage in hybrid form compared to dragon form!). We should also change "base animal" to "base dragon" at the start of the entry.

Hmm, the Lycanthrope Template doesn't specify, it just said "These weapons deal damage based on the hybrid form’s size. A hybrid may attack with a weapon and a bite, or may attack with its natural weapons. The bite attack of a hybrid is a secondary attack" so I was inclined to use the standard template "use the best damage" rule of thumb (i.e. the SRD Vampire's "Creatures that have other kinds of natural weapons retain their old damage values or use the appropriate value from the table below, whichever is better").

Upon reflection, I think I prefer your proposal. It'll help cover those Wyrms with weak claws or feeble jaws.

So how's this:

Damage: Same as the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form the weredrake is in. The hybrid form’s attacks deal damage as indicated in the Hybrid Form Damage Table. If the table would give the hybrid form claw and bite attacks that deal more damage than the base dragon form, use the base dragon's damage instead.

Hybrid Form Damage Table

Hybrid Size	Claw & Bite	Other Attacks
Tiny	1d3	As base dragon
Small	1d4	As base dragon
Medium	1d6	As base dragon
Large	1d8	As base dragon
Huge	2d6	As base dragon
Gargantuan	2d8	As base dragon
Colossal	4d6	As base dragon

freyar · May 24, 2021

Yes, this looks good!

Looking at the SAs, most of them would have a DC given by the Con modifier (for the base dragon), except for frightful presence (Cha). Should we say they use Con unless otherwise specified, and then note that frightful presence uses Cha?

Would you agree that we don't need any more SAs?

Do we actually have any extra SQs to add? Since these aren't the true dragons, I'm not thinking of any off hand that necessarily fit enough of the rest of dragon-kind.

Oh, and should we say that weredrakes cannot be "dragons with age categories" as opposed to "true dragons"? I feel like linnorms and other age category dragons should either be weredragons or have their own version.

Cleon · May 24, 2021

freyar said:
Yes, this looks good!

Looking at the SAs, most of them would have a DC given by the Con modifier (for the base dragon), except for frightful presence (Cha). Should we say they use Con unless otherwise specified, and then note that frightful presence uses Cha?

I propose:

A weredrake retains the special attacks of the base creature or base dragon, depending on which form it is using. Saves have a DC of 10 + ½ weredrake's HD + the weredrake's modifier in whatever ability the form (creature or dragon) uses for that special attack, or Cha if this isn't noted.

In hybrid form a weredrake retains the special attacks of the base creature and gains the special attacks described below. If both base forms possess the same special attack, the hybrid form uses the base dragon's version.

Oh, and I'd tweak the Frightful Presence SA to "A weredrake whose base dragon possesses a breath weapon can use it when in hybrid form." As written it implies a weredrake in hybrid form has a breath weapon even if its base dragon doesn't!

freyar said:
Would you agree that we don't need any more SAs?

Yes!

freyar said:
Do we actually have any extra SQs to add? Since these aren't the true dragons, I'm not thinking of any off hand that necessarily fit enough of the rest of dragon-kind.

No, at the very least it needs the Alternate Form ability!

I also wouldn't be amiss to it being able to use some of its "draconic senses" and innate defenses in all its forms or its hybrid form.

Special Qualities

A weredrake retains all the special qualities of the base creature and the base dragon, and also gains those described below.

Alternate Form (Su): A weredrake can assume the form of a specific dragon (as indicated in its entry) or a bipedal hybrid of the base dragon and base creature.

Changing to or from dragon or hybrid form is a standard action.

A slain weredrake reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their draconic form, however.

Most weredrakes have full control over this power, but some are subject to involuntary change into their dragon or hybrid form (as per Lycanthropy as an Affliction in the Lycanthrope template) under specific triggering conditions. What counts as a triggering event varies between individual "afflicted" weredrakes, but common triggers are the sight of a large amount of treasure or the scent of a dragon and accumulating enough damage to reduce the weredrake's hit points by one-quarter (and again after each additional one-quarter lost).

Damage Reduction: The weredrake's hybrid form has any damage reduction possessed by the base dragon.

Draconic Senses: If the base dragon possesses darkvision, low-light vision or scent the weredrake can use these senses in any form. If the base dragon possesses other sensory abilities such as blindsight, it can use the special ability in humanoid or hybrid form, but when in humanoid form the ability has half the base dragon's range and/or effectiveness.

Draconic Defenses: A weredrake possesses the base dragon's immunities and resistances in all its forms. This usually includes the immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects common to creatures with the Dragon type.

Drakanthropic Communication: In any form, a weredrake can communicate with creatures of their dragon form. If the base dragon is a bestial creature incapable of language, the weredrake can communicate simple concepts and (if the dragon is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack." A weredrake in dragon form can always speak Draconic even if the base dragon cannot.

I think that about covers it! It seemed improper to give the weredrake full Drakanthropic Empathy with "+4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the dragon's attitude" so I trimmed it down to communication-only.

freyar said:
Oh, and should we say that weredrakes cannot be "dragons with age categories" as opposed to "true dragons"? I feel like linnorms and other age category dragons should either be weredragons or have their own version.

Yes, that sound good. How about:

The base dragon cannot be a dragon with age categories; drakanthropes based on such true dragons use the Weredragon template instead.

I usually think of all dragons with age categories as being "true dragons", including the Orientals and Linnorms.