Special Conversion Thread: Moldvay's Undead

[freyar]

Are the slam attacks supposed to be in addition to other attacks (natural?) of the base creature or to replace them?

I think we may end up needing to bump the CR of these slightly.

 

[Cleon]

Are the slam attacks supposed to be in addition to other attacks (natural?) of the base creature or to replace them?

I think we may end up needing to bump the CR of these slightly.

The slam (singular ) should be instead of the regular natural attacks, but that's already in the template which says the quick zombie has slam attacks "it can use instead of the base creature's attacks".

 

[freyar]

Why not make it "in addition to" like a normal zombie? Or most other undead, for that matter?

 

[Cleon]

Why not make it "in addition to" like a normal zombie? Or most other undead, for that matter?

Well in the case of regular zombies it isn't in addition, 'cause they can only make 1 attack per round. That "Single Action Only" ability makes them an awkward comparison though.

 

[freyar]

Well, right, but they have a choice of what attack to make. Maybe the skeleton, which also retains all natural attacks and weapon proficiencies (except which require flesh) and gain claw attacks, is a better comparison.

 

[Cleon]

Well, right, but they have a choice of what attack to make. Maybe the skeleton, which also retains all natural attacks and weapon proficiencies (except which require flesh) and gain claw attacks, is a better comparison.

Well I fear I won't be able to sway you all. If we are giving it three slams full attacking I would want to drop it to 1d6 damage for a Medium Zombie as per the SRD template (which is what Shade had originally).

Three 1d6s is only one sixth more average damage than two 1d8s. (10.5/9), but three 1d8s is half more damage. The damage adjustment more or less balances out too, since the "single attack version" would have got 1.5 times Str - i.e. a Str 14-15 zombie would have three 1d6+2 (paired slams) vs two 1d8+3 (single slam), for 10% more damage (16.5/15).

Attacks: A quick zombie gains a +1 attack bonus due to its haste ability (see below). It retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. A quick zombie gains two slam attacks it can use instead of the base creature's attacks.

Full Attacks: Due to its haste ability, a quick zombie can make an additional attack when making a full attack. It always makes this additional attack with its primary weapon.

Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal damage normally. A slam attack deals damage depending on the quick zombie's size. (Use the base creature’s slam damage if it's better.)

Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 3d6
Colossal 4d6

I changed the Gargantuan damage from the SRD's 2d8 since it broke standard progression.

 

[Cleon]

About the only other thing I think needs amending is the Challenge Rating. The substitution of Haste for Single Action Only is worth a CR boost. A single step upwards would probably be enough:

HD CR
1/2 1/4
1 1/2
2–3 1
4–5 2
6–7 3
8–10 4
12–14 5
15–17 6
18–20 7

Our sample Quick Zombie is now:

Human Commoner Quick Zombie
Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 2d12+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: 3 slams +3 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Haste
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness (B)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-12), or mob (10-20)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

I also fancied doing a Wyvern as an additional sample:

Wyvern Quick Zombie
Large Undead
Hit Dice: 14d12+3 (94 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 90 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 24 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +12 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+16
Attack: Sting +12 melee (1d6+5) or talon +12 melee (2d6+5) or bite +12 melee (2d8+5) or slam +12 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 stings +12 melee (1d6+5) and bite +7 melee (2d8+5) and 2 wings +7 melee (1d8+5) and 2 talons +7 melee (2d6+5); or 3 slams +12 melee (2d6+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Haste
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +9
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 14, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness (B)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-12), or mob (10-20)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

 

[Shade]

Lookin' good.

Updated. Finished?

 

[freyar]

Well, I'm not sure if the CR table is quite right. The samples look better than their CR, I think. I think I'd push the CRs in the table up a step each to be a little more comfortable with it.

 

[Cleon]

Well, I'm not sure if the CR table is quite right. The samples look better than their CR, I think. I think I'd push the CRs in the table up a step each to be a little more comfortable with it.

Yes, you're on to something there. I eyeballed them as CR2 with my first rough draft. Part of the problem is that HD alone are not a good basis for judging zombie nastiness, since AC and attacks are also important.

The Wyvern is probably not a good basis for comparison, since it has lots of attacks. Consider a Dire Wolf Quick Zombie:

Dire Wolf Quick Zombie
Large Undead
Hit Dice: 12d12+3 (81 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +1 dodge, +6 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Bite +13 melee (1d8+12) or slam +13 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: 2 bites +13 melee (1d8+12) or 3 slams +13 melee (1d8+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Haste
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +4
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 19, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness (B)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-12), or mob (10-20)
Challenge Rating: 5

That's not as tough as the Wyvern but is still more like a CR6 than a 5.

Perhaps we should use the skeleton's CR progression instead, with the CR tweaked up by one?

'HD ' ' CR
1/2 '' 1/3
'1' ' ' 1
2-3 ' ' 2
4-5 ' ' 3
6-7 ' ' 4
8-9 ' ' 5
10-11 ' 6
12-14 ' 7
15-17 ' 8
18-20 ' 9

What thinks thee?