Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition

[MwaO]

In all other editions of the game, armor itself sets the baseline. Even thought the d20 system reversed the way AC worked, it is still very easy to identify what a good AC is (anything that is equivalent to plate armor or better, for example). This problem exists across the math of 4e, as there is no "in world" reference to what the numbers mean.

Just imagine an unarmored 20th level Fighter simply dodging a 1st level Fighter while the 1st level Fighter attempts to smack them. In which edition does the expected happen? That the 1st level Fighter barely does anything at all after a few minutes of trying to kill the other Fighter?

1e/2e: Fighter is likely AC 10. Probably gets hit more than half the time and is killed after 2 minutes.
3e: Again, AC 12 or so(14 Dex?). Fighter 20 probably doesn't even last that long.
5e: Again, AC 12 or so(14 Dex?). Fighter 20 again dies quickly.
4e: Wait a second - AC 22 or so and Total Defense Action = 24. Fighter 1 likely has a +8 to hit, so only hits the higher level Fighter 25% of the time. He likely dings him for a few hp, but he's unlikely to come anywhere near killing him. Even without Second Wind.

That's what you'd expect in an actual fight with a fast, strong novice going after a fast, strong expert unarmored swordsman with "in world" reference.

But to say that for the past 30,000 years in the Forgotten Realms, everybody was wrong, and now they all call elves eladrin, and they have different abilities and such? It doesn't work so well.

According to Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide page 5, ancient lineages of elves came back from the fey wild - a different plane. Those are the ones with teleportation and they're the ones who call themselves Eladrin. Some other elves, particularly Gold/Silver started calling themselves Eladrin because they wanted to be cool. Some elves just rolled their eyes, such as Wood/Wild.

There are a lot of similar issues of what you find objectionable. Just thought I'd point out the thought process of two of them.

I'm not saying you had to get past them. Just saying, if you look more closely, a lot of the options make more sense than at first glance. Especially when you ignore a lot of adventures released by WotC and LFR in year 1...

 

[Parmandur]

Just imagine an unarmored 20th level Fighter simply dodging a 1st level Fighter while the 1st level Fighter attempts to smack them. In which edition does the expected happen? That the 1st level Fighter barely does anything at all after a few minutes of trying to kill the other Fighter?

1e/2e: Fighter is likely AC 10. Probably gets hit more than half the time and is killed after 2 minutes.
3e: Again, AC 12 or so(14 Dex?). Fighter 20 probably doesn't even last that long.
5e: Again, AC 12 or so(14 Dex?). Fighter 20 again dies quickly.
4e: Wait a second - AC 22 or so and Total Defense Action = 24. Fighter 1 likely has a +8 to hit, so only hits the higher level Fighter 25% of the time. He likely dings him for a few hp, but he's unlikely to come anywhere near killing him. Even without Second Wind.

That's what you'd expect in an actual fight with a fast, strong novice going after a fast, strong expert unarmored swordsman with "in world" reference.

Actually, no; the other editions are what I would expect to happen in a real fight as set up, 4E is an outlier in terms of combat realism compared to other editions. D&D is never, strictly speaking, "realistic," but the real world definitely has "Bounded Accuracy" built in.

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[Nagol]

Just imagine an unarmored 20th level Fighter simply dodging a 1st level Fighter while the 1st level Fighter attempts to smack them. In which edition does the expected happen? That the 1st level Fighter barely does anything at all after a few minutes of trying to kill the other Fighter?

1e/2e: Fighter is likely AC 10. Probably gets hit more than half the time and is killed after 2 minutes.

More likely after 20 minutes! Each round is minute long and the 20th level fighter has a fair number of hp compared to incoming damage 9d10 + 11 + 9 * Con bonus vs. 1d8!

3e: Again, AC 12 or so(14 Dex?). Fighter 20 probably doesn't even last that long.

Rounds drop down to 6 seconds so the 20th level may want to consider fighting back or disengaging after a minute or so. He has EVEN MORE hp (20d10 + 20 * easier to attain Con bonus) vs. 1d8 + 4ish hp though so he is not really threatened for the first full minute as he makes up his mind abut what to do.

5e: Again, AC 12 or so(14 Dex?). Fighter 20 again dies quickly.

Define quickly. The 20-level can stand there for a minute of so while being bashed on with lethal hardware without risking serious injury or death and can take out his opponent or disengage at any time.

4e: Wait a second - AC 22 or so and Total Defense Action = 24. Fighter 1 likely has a +8 to hit, so only hits the higher level Fighter 25% of the time. He likely dings him for a few hp, but he's unlikely to come anywhere near killing him. Even without Second Wind.

That's what you'd expect in an actual fight with a fast, strong novice going after a fast, strong expert unarmored swordsman with "in world" reference.

5e, 3e, and 1e does the same if the Fighter takes any form of defensive action like dodging -- which every system has available for use.

 

[MwaO]

Actually, no; the other editions are what I would expect to happen in a real fight as set up, 4E is an outlier in terms of combat realism compared to other editions. D&D is never, strictly speaking, "realistic," but the real world definitely has "Bounded Accuracy" built in.[/URL]

Seriously, a novice is attacking a swordmaster armed with a sword and the novices has almost no training, and you'd expect likely outcome to be the novice kills him if he did nothing other than defend himself?

 

[Parmandur]

Seriously, a novice is attacking a swordmaster armed with a sword and the novices has almost no training, and you'd expect likely outcome to be the novice kills him if he did nothing other than defend himself?

If the dude is unarmored and not trying to disable the novice, and the novice is earnestly going for the kill? Sure, combat is deadly and random in real life like that; people die practicing without deadly intent.

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[Nagol]

Seriously, a novice is attacking a swordmaster armed with a sword and the novices has almost no training, and you'd expect likely outcome to be the novice kills him if he did nothing other than defend himself?

Eventually, yes; assuming the novice doesn't get so tuckered out he can't continue.

It would take a LONG while in 1e though. Assuming the high-level has Dex < 16 and Con < 15 and average hp, he has 60 hp. Assuming the low-level has Str < 16 (and is using a long sword just because), he inflicts 1d8 damage per hit. So it takes him about 13 hits to kill the high-level. If the high-level is only taking normal combat defensive actions( the type where you are expecting to strike back) the low-level will hit about half the time and hence kill the high-level Fighter in about half an hour. Additional defensive options are available for the high-level fighter, but we'll assume they don't add value.

In 3e it's much faster combat rounds, but the high-level fighter has more hp: 110 base + 20 per Con modifier > 1. The attacker is inflicting a bit more damage each hit (up to about double the damage of the 1e version at STR 18) is so the number of rounds remains the same, but each round is 6 seconds long so the victim will be killed in about 3 minutes unless the 3e victim takes advantage of better defensive tactics. Total defence action raises your AC by 4 which almost doubles the duration until death to about 6 minutes.

 

[Parmandur]

Eventually, yes; assuming the novice doesn't get so tuckered out he can't continue.

It would take a LONG while in 1e though. Assuming the high-level has Dex < 16 and Con < 15 and average hp, he has 60 hp. Assuming the low-level has Str < 16 (and is using a long sword just because), he inflicts 1d8 damage per hit. So it takes him about 13 hits to kill the high-level. If the high-level is only taking normal combat defensive actions( the type where you are expecting to strike back) the low-level will hit about half the time and hence kill the high-level Fighter in about half an hour. Additional defensive options are available for the high-level fighter, but we'll assume they don't add value.

In 3e it's much faster combat rounds, but the high-level fighter has more hp: 110 base + 20 per Con modifier > 1. The attacker is inflicting a bit more damage each hit (up to about double the damage of the 1e version at STR 18) is so the number of rounds remains the same, but each round is 6 seconds long so the victim will be killed in about 3 minutes unless the 3e victim takes advantage of better defensive tactics. Total defence action raises your AC by 4 which almost doubles the duration until death to about 6 minutes.

A real master wouldn't just dodge, he would incapacitate the aggressor, lethally or non-lethally; but the example goes a long way to showing the oddity of 4E as combat game...

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[Nagol]

A real master wouldn't just dodge, he would incapacitate the aggressor, lethally or non-lethally; but the example goes a long way to showing the oddity of 4E as combat game...

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Which is trivial to do in any of the editions. Or at least simply take the weapon away (which is a bit harder in most, but the victim has some much time to react). I'm assuming some reason the high-level won't strike back (it'd be disrespectful, it's a dare, whatever).

 

[darkbard]

If the dude is unarmored and not trying to disable the novice, and the novice is earnestly going for the kill? Sure, combat is deadly and random in real life like that; people die practicing without deadly intent.

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Do you never watch movies or read fiction? This scenario is a staple of both kung fu and heroic fantasy. We're not talking about real world scenarios here but rather the fantastical world of D&D, which seeks to evoke these aforementioned genres.

One thing you do have correct, though, is that the standard trope in such fictions is that the armed novice winds up panting on the floor, disarmed and likely slapped on the face or back of the head by the master who effortlessly avoids his attacks time and time again.

 

[MwaO]

Do you never watch movies or read fiction? This scenario is a staple of both kung fu and heroic fantasy. We're not talking about real world scenarios here but rather the fantastical world of D&D, which seeks to evoke these aforementioned genres.

Actually, I'm talking real world scenarios here. Take a novice with a sword against an actual world-class martial artist armed with a sword. Which is what we're talking about when referring to a 1st level Fighter vs a 20th level one.

The novice doesn't have the slightest chance at all.