Spell Immunity vs Metamagic

[0-hr]

I character has Spell Immunity vs "Fireball".

They are then in the area of effect of an empowered, energy substituted(Electricity), Fireball spell.

Are they immune?

 

[Stalker0]

Yes, for all purposes a metamagiced fireball is still a fireball. So your spell immunity would apply.

To take it even further you can counterspell that nasty fireball with just a regular fireball spell.

 

[Infiniti2000]

There are two parts to this. The first is the easier one to answer, what level spell is an empowered fireball? The answer is clearly 3rd level. Sure, it takes a 5th level slot (or not, depending on the exact metamagic used), but for purposes of globes of invulnerability and spell DC, it's 3rd level. The second is harder to answer. If you specify "fireball" does that include "empowered fireball?" Based on the analogy to counterspells, yes. Since I think that's the most appropriate analogy, and the rules on "specified spell" are non-existent, I'd go with that.

As a side comment, this question normally pops up regarding flame strike. Can spell immunity to flame strike (based on the 4th level druid spell) also apply to the 5th level clerical spell. The answer is no, because it seems clear that the two spells are not specified the same because they violate one of the spell immunity limitations: level.

 

[the Jester]

The intriguing question to me is: should a Heightened fireball still count? What if it's Heightened to 9th level?

 

[Stalker0]

For all purposes, including bypass globes of invulnerability and such, heighten counts. So if you heightened a fireball beyond the level spell immunity can work, then it would bypass the defense.

 

[QuillofNumenor]

Hello, it was in my game that this confusing and interesting discussion-stimulating event happened.

Here is the setup:

An 11th level cleric casts Spell Immunity on himself. His chosen spells are fireball and lightning bolt. He is attacked by a 15th level wizard who casts an empowered fireball with the Energy Substitution metamagic feat so that it deals electricity damage. As you might expect, the spell does some heavy damage, enough to kill the cleric.

SO, the question that came up in our group was this: Does a spell cast with Energy Substitution on it become a different spell, or is it the same spell in every respect except for its subtype? A reading of the feat mentions nothing about the spell actually becoming a different spell (i.e., fireball to lightningball), and says the spell's descriptor changes to reflect the new energy type, which, in my reading, presumes that nothing else about the spell changes. This is a pressing issue for my group, because depending on whether or not the spell failed against Spell Immunity, this player's character actually wouldn't have died.

I am leaning heavily toward a ruling that an Energy Substituted spell is always the same as its "base" spell and that it can be resisted by Spell Immunity just as if it hadn't been metamagic'ed (unless of course it is also heightened as was mentioned above). However, I haven't been able to find anything close to an official ruling on this, and would like to be sure I'm as correct as I can possibly be, since one of my players has quite a lot riding on the outcome. Thanks.

 

[KarinsDad]

I am leaning heavily toward a ruling that an Energy Substituted spell is always the same as its "base" spell and that it can be resisted by Spell Immunity just as if it hadn't been metamagic'ed (unless of course it is also heightened as was mentioned above). However, I haven't been able to find anything close to an official ruling on this, and would like to be sure I'm as correct as I can possibly be, since one of my players has quite a lot riding on the outcome.

True, but you do not have an official ruling in the opposite direction either, so using the Similar Rule rule (with respect to Counterspelling), it seems you have more rules supporting this decision than rules not supporting it.

 

[QuillofNumenor]

The second is harder to answer. If you specify "fireball" does that include "empowered fireball?" Based on the analogy to counterspells, yes. Since I think that's the most appropriate analogy, and the rules on "specified spell" are non-existent, I'd go with that.

So if I read you correctly, you can counterspell, say, an empowered, energy substituted fireball, with a regular old garden variety third level vanilla fireball? That would seem to make sense, and if true, then that would mean my player did indeed survive the blast. Looks like good evidence.

 

[Sejs]

Spell Immunity still applies.

A base spell modified via metamagic is still the same base spell.

An Empowered, Delayed, Heightened Fireball is still Fireball. Even if it essentially shares the same characteristics, it is not Delayed Blast Fireball.