Spell Lists: Really Necessary?

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Aside from classes that have access to their entire spell lists (divine casters, beguilers, warmages, etc.), do you think that spell lists are really necessary to maintain balance? Spell lists maintain class archetypes...kinda usually. But I'm not talking about archetypes; I'm talking about balance. Sure there are a few problem spells like True Strike, but do you think things like wizards with cure spells would unbalance the game?

TS
 

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If you're asking if it would be unbalancing to let any spellcasting class prepare (or spontaneously cast) any spell of the appropriate level - eschewing class lists and arcane/divine distinctions altogether - then in all honesty, no, I really don't think there'd be any balance issues with that.
 

Really it causes an issue due to availability. If spells were granted daily then yeah... but I have that issue with clerics as-is. If spells are omnipresent then yeah... but I have that issue with non-spontaneous arcanists.

Spell lists should have good flavor and reason behind them; there should be ways for people to learn different spells without having to go cross-class to get them (perhaps a delay of some sort? 5th level spells from your standard class, 3-4th from others?) . . . . but you have a lot of issues to repair re: PrC and 'slow' spell level lists (bard, assassin, etc.) which need to be resolved then.

I really think (for my own campaigns, mileage varies) that each school/training grove/temple should have a series of 20 spells which they specialize in up to 5th or 6th level. There are mages who may travel to the Temple of the Risen Sun to learn the Bright Beacon of Helios from the local clerics... but channeling is more difficult for them, and it is a harder spell. Spells above that level? Go ask an angel/demon/archmage or set up a lab and start researching. Otherwise, you may find an old tome which possesses such magics...

but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 


Aside from classes that have access to their entire spell lists (divine casters, beguilers, warmages, etc.), do you think that spell lists are really necessary to maintain balance? Spell lists maintain class archetypes...kinda usually. But I'm not talking about archetypes; I'm talking about balance. Sure there are a few problem spells like True Strike, but do you think things like wizards with cure spells would unbalance the game?

TS
The problem isn't wizards, it's clerics and druids. The edge that Wizards keep over those classes is arcane magic-- they are strictly worse otherwise. (Bonus feats vs. Wild Shape/Animal Companion/Spontaneous Summoning? Yeah, let me think about that.) Letting the spellcasting bear pick any spells he wants every day (and divine casters don't even keep spellbooks-- they could literally prepare anything under your system) would cause any Wizard I know to burst into tears.

Divine classes are already the twisted flaming metal of the trainwreck of balance that is 3e. Please don't make it worse.
 

Sure there are a few problem spells like True Strike, but do you think things like wizards with cure spells would unbalance the game?

No problem there; the Archivist, for all intents and purposes, is a Wizard with access to divine spells. It's the Druid, Cleric, and Favored Soul casting Weird, Time Stop, Shapechange, etc. that would be the problem. Arcane spells are absolutely superior to divine spells, and should not be in the hands of anyone less squishy than a Sorceror. I mean, unless you want a game in which divine classes are all categorically better than all the other classes. It could make for a neat campaign idea, if your players are on board with it.
 

Having a unified spell list might be very difficult if you are trying to reconcile classes with fast and slow rates of spell progression.

For example, polar ray is normally a 8th lv spell, but it is also a 5th lv duskblade spell (to work around its slow rate of spell progression). Heal is a 5th lv adept spell. Lesser restoration is a 1st lv paladin spell. Flamestrike is a 4th lv druid spell. All classes end up being able to automatically choose the lowest lv version of any spell they wish to cast.

The archivist highlights this issue the best, with his ability to essentially cherry-pick the lowest lv version of any divine spell.

Is it necessarily a bad thing? You decide. :)
 


The main reason the distinction exists is flavor. Someone felt a need to sharply distinginuish between arcane and divine magic. That isn't true in all games. In GURPS Banestorm, all magic is is essentially arcane, with miracles being a different and less predictable phenomenon. Clerical casters are essentially priests who also happen to study magic. In Warhammer, the distinction is less than in D&D; each type of caster has their own list, but there are Lesser spells they have in common, too, and each wizard order is different from th others, as well. Runequest divides things up by casting style (rune, spirit, or sorcery), not by arcane versus divine. 1st and 2nd edition Talislanta had all casters, clerical or arcane, using te same spell lists, while 3rd edition and later gave each Order of magic its own spells. So it really has a lot to do with campaign design.

As pointed out, if you took away arcane casters' unique access to the most powerful spells, you have to give something in return. The easiest thing to do would be to eliminate clerics, such that traditional clerics are essentially fighter/wizard types. Druid would become a PrC that granted spellcasting progression and offered wildshape and their special immunites. You also have to sort out what level spells become available at. The easiest thing to do would be to say that for spells not appearing on other lists, they are available at the same level if the classes have the same number of spell levels. If one class has 4th level spells, adjust the spell level up once (for five, six or seven level classes) or twice (for eight or nine spell level classes).
 

When you are talking combat spells: yes, there are balance issues. It addresses this in the DMG. The wizard is made to be more vulnerable but have more powerful damaging spells. The cleric has access to heavy armor and better FORT saves.

Would it, for example, hurt to give a wizard a spell of the wu jen list? That's probably strictly a flavor issue.
 

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