Spell lists vs. story needs

[ExploderWizard]

If story concerns take a higher priority than play, why do you need rules in the first place? The npc has whatever they need to play thier part and the players have likewise for thier characters. Just narrate a satisfying story out of it and write it down.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

There is a big difference between combat magic and non-combat magic. Throwing fireballs, making the floor slippery, creating protective force-fields, and short distance teleportation are all forms of combat magic, while granting the ability to breath underwater, see far away, detect metals, long distance flight and contacting higher being for information are all non-combat magics.

You can't expect the Wicked Witch of the West to scry Dorothy during combat, but you could reasonably expect her to try and curse, transform or enchant Dorothy and her companions.

The designers of 4e had a rather good idea of dividing magic into combat powers and non-combat rituals. The only problem was that they failed to develop rituals much beyond their appearance in the PH1.

 

[MINI]

There is the possibility of a house rule, allowing a caster to sacrifice 2 spells of greater or equal level to spontaneously cast a spell of their choosing. For a priest it could be any spell, for a wizard it would be any spell they know.

 

[Plane Sailing]

A gem was uttered near the end of the latest episode of the Pulp Gamer podcast. "Baum didn't need to write a list of spells for the Wicked WItch of the West. If he needed her to be able to spy on Dorothy, then she could."

This makes a lot of sense. I can't count the number of times that I had a pre-generated (or even a self-generated) character whose spell list consisted of so many spells that I never used. Maybe this is the trouble with fantasy RPGs: character capabilities are not written in terms of what they can do for a story, only in terms of their tactical utility.

What can be done here?

What you see as a problem, I see as an opportunity. Spell lists give the opportunity to prepare for a range of circumstances (or in the case of <4e a wide variety of plot circumstances that can be handled out of the box). One of the flaws to my mind of the 4e approach was that in assuming that a creature lasts for 4 rounds it should only have four powers, limited it to only doing those 4 things. A wider range of powers in earlier editions allows a wider range of strategic and tactical uses of given creatures.

Spell lists (and creature power lists) act as a prompt for stories for me.

Cheers

 

[Wednesday Boy]

What you see as a problem, I see as an opportunity. Spell lists give the opportunity to prepare for a range of circumstances (or in the case of <4e a wide variety of plot circumstances that can be handled out of the box). One of the flaws to my mind of the 4e approach was that in assuming that a creature lasts for 4 rounds it should only have four powers, limited it to only doing those 4 things. A wider range of powers in earlier editions allows a wider range of strategic and tactical uses of given creatures.

4E does this as well without being restricted by a spell list. The 4E Wicked Witch of the West stat block may only have four powers listed but those are her in combat powers. She doesn't need to have a spell list with Scrying in her stat block to spy on Dorothy. If the Frank the DM (that's Frank Baum the DM, not [MENTION=1164]frankthedm[/MENTION]) thinks the WWotW can scry on Dorothy, then she can.

 

[Plane Sailing]

4E does this as well without being restricted by a spell list. The 4E Wicked Witch of the West stat block may only have four powers listed but those are her in combat powers. She doesn't need to have a spell list with Scrying in her stat block to spy on Dorothy. If the Frank the DM (that's Frank Baum the DM, not [MENTION=1164]frankthedm[/MENTION]) thinks the WWotW can scry on Dorothy, then she can.

In any edition that has been done by scroll / magic item / magic location / eldritch machine, so that isn't a 4e thing.

That 4e Wicked Witch still only has 4 different ways of tackling the face to face situations; the typical 3e devil has half a dozen completely different approaches available.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to ruffle any 4e feathers (or 3e feathers come to that), so apologies if I chose examples which did so.

I don't want to detract from my main point - a comprehensive range of spells or powers has always been an inspiration to me, and the lack of it an inhibitor.

Cheers

 

[Wednesday Boy]

In any edition that has been done by scroll / magic item / magic location / eldritch machine, so that isn't a 4e thing.

That 4e Wicked Witch still only has 4 different ways of tackling the face to face situations; the typical 3e devil has half a dozen completely different approaches available.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to ruffle any 4e feathers (or 3e feathers come to that), so apologies if I chose examples which did so.

I don't want to detract from my main point - a comprehensive range of spells or powers has always been an inspiration to me, and the lack of it an inhibitor.

No worries, my 4E feathers didn't get ruffled. I was trying to point out that the design intent in 4E mirrors what the OP was citing.

I can certainly see your point. On one hand having no spell list is great because it gives you unrestricted freedom for the spellcaster's capabilities. But on the other hand, it's not great because it gives you no starting point to conjure brainstorming.