Spell Philosophy you would like to see

[Tony Vargas]

So .... what would be the point of magic then?

Why, it does the impossible, of course.

Theif: I can get this sarcophagus hermetically sealed inside the hour, I've got a few sp worth of lead shot I can melt down, it'll take some care and time, but won't be difficult.

Fighter: But the vampire will regenerate by then. I don't want to have to try to beat that thing down again. I've lost enough levels for one lifetime already!

Wizard: It'll take a few hundred residuum, because it's such a complex, finely-made item, but I could use Make Whole, the ritual is well within my arcane skill, but the precision will require tremendous concentration...

Fighter: You better try it. I hope this works, if not, we'll sure regret not having a Cleric.

Warlord: I can hear you, y'know...

No class, or approach to playing the game, should suck.

Absolutely. So let's not go back to non-casters sucking becaue casters can do anything and everything with a snap of their somatic components.

 

[FireLance]

I think the spellcaster should be able to choose the level of risk, and correspondingly, the power of his spells, that he wants.

Perhaps there are Transmutation spells that grant the target some minor benefit, but they can have greater, more powerful effects if he is willing to risk a system shock roll.

Perhaps there are offensive Evocation spells that deal a small amount of damage if they are cast as a standard action. However, if the spellcaster is willing to extend the casting time to two or more rounds and risk spell disruption, they can become truly devastating.

Maybe basic Necromancy spells can only animate bones and corpses for a short while. However, if the spellcaster is willing to invest a portion of his life force, the animation can be made permanent.

 

[Elf Witch]

If you can name some truly mindless creatures, I might be persuaded.

Zombies? They want to eat people. They have a mind.

Golems? They will obey any order as best they understand it. They have a mind.

In order for something to behave like a creature while being mindless, it needs to be a puppet. Which means the puppetmaster is a reasonable target for mind-affecting stuff.

The problem is this zombies have one desire to feed on living flesh how does charm work does it make it think you are not living flesh. A zombie will turn on and eats its spouse or children that they loved more than life when they were alive.

As for the golem it takes orders it does not want to be your friend that is not part of its programming so why would charm work on that.

 

[Elf Witch]

Speed. You can accomplish in seconds or minutes what would normally take hours or days.

Flexibility. You can do things that you normally would not be able to do because you lack the skill. You wouldn't want to do it often, and you wouldn't be as good as someone who was actually trained, but sometimes, your allies aren't around when you need them.

Coolness. What's not to like about changing reality with a few wierd words and strange gestures?

So basically every one and while you get to something cool but the rest of the time you don't dare because the cost is to high so you hang back and watch the rest of the players have all the fun.

 

[Andor]

Absolutely. So let's not go back to non-casters sucking becaue casters can do anything and everything with a snap of their somatic components.

Agreed. I don't think that should mean Magic is always the worst option however because, then it sucks.

Even in your own example the Mage isn't doing anything anyone else can't do, he's just reflavoring it.

D&D magic has always bugged me because it is 5001 ways to blow things up and not one damn way to heat your house. If technology worked like D&D magic we'd still be wearing uncured hides and living in caves, but we'd have grenades and flamethrowers.

I, personally, would be happy if the 5e mages rocked Exploration and Social, but blew chunks in combat. But it won't fly, Fireball, Lightning bolt, Cone of Cold. Sacred cows of magic boom.

So. I agree that combat magic should be risky, or costly, or at least throttled back to 2 rounds of awesome a day and mostly Magic Missiles.

But Magic should be Magic damnit! If you don't get to be cool ever you're not a mage, you're a henchmen with a wand.

 

[FireLance]

So basically every one and while you get to something cool but the rest of the time you don't dare because the cost is to high so you hang back and watch the rest of the players have all the fun.

Shouldn't a spellcaster be more than the sum of his spells?

If you're a wizard, you should be contributing knowledge and lore towards the resolution of any problem.

If you're a cleric, you might have persuasive skills or insights that might be able to help.

As any fighter or rogue can tell you, you shouldn't let the lack of magic stop you from doing something cool (and ideally, the presence of magic shouldn't, either).

 

[BobTheNob]

I want magic to be chaotic an unpredictable. The guy who can do just about anything, but is utterly unpredicatable. When he succeeds, he does so spectacularly, but when he fails, it backlashes in unpredictable ways. I want the mage to be the guy you bring along who brings the ability to infrequently bring radical change.

Have a look at the DCC rpg did with magic (there is a free BETA download). There were a number of things about that game I didnt like, but the magic system was sensational. Potent and unpredictable, and no Vancian or Mana.

 

[Elf Witch]

Shouldn't a spellcaster be more than the sum of his spells?

If you're a wizard, you should be contributing knowledge and lore towards the resolution of any problem.

If you're a cleric, you might have persuasive skills or insights that might be able to help.

As any fighter or rogue can tell you, you shouldn't let the lack of magic stop you from doing something cool (and ideally, the presence of magic shouldn't, either).

I have played a wizard with tons of skill in knowledge and yes that can be fun but since you have other classes who can also do this often you are not the one getting to be the sage at that point. Last night in our game the rogue out rolled me on on every spellcraft check and every arcana check and two history checks. If that was all I could do in the game that would have been boring.

But fighters and rogues have things that make them cool like being able to attack every round or pick every lock and disarm all the traps.

I like the Shadowrun system, for this because as a mage in that game I am not limited to just doing magic I can fire a gun as well as any street sam, I can drive a car as well as any one else but a rigger.

In DnD mages are meant to do magic which is why they have a lowest hit points, BABs and limited weapon choices. If you take that away from them by making it hard to do magic or to dangerous unless the situation is desperate you have taken away their ability to really contribute meaningfully.

Because fighters don't use magic they get more hit points, better BABs, and more feats and a bigger selection of weapon and armor choices. Rogues get a ton of skills, scouting abilities, picking locks and disarming traps, sneak attack damage.

 

[Ranganathan]

I would like to see a return of the old school spells that aren't strictly about nuking a target. Stone to Mud, Mud to Stone, various Walls... all the good stuff that can be used in tricksy ways to do all kinds of nasty things to targets without strictly killing them or dishing out massive damage all the time. I'd rather win through ingenuity than brute force.

5th Edition should provide the framework to accomplish this, whether as part of the Core or as a module. Likely as Core, but it doesn't matter where it is, as long as it's there.

I wouldn't mind a casting roll that sets the save DC for the target, but that strikes me as too many rolls for a simple thing. Just use the ability score as the DC to affect a target in a common sense kinda way, turning someone to stone likely targets Con and charms target Cha according to the seminars. You don't need to roll twice, just use the stats as DCs.

But, have the option to have either side be active or passive. Take Score for passive defenses and saves (d20 + mod) for active defenses. One active and one passive per exchange, you don't need both. Just make the PCs actively roll things 90% of the time and you're golden.

 

[FireLance]

I have played a wizard with tons of skill in knowledge and yes that can be fun but since you have other classes who can also do this often you are not the one getting to be the sage at that point. Last night in our game the rogue out rolled me on on every spellcraft check and every arcana check and two history checks. If that was all I could do in the game that would have been boring.

Curious. Did he get really lucky, or was there some other factor at work here?

Anyway, as in all things, the b-word applies. Most of the time, though, the danger is more that magic makes mundane efforts irrelevant than the other way around. Surely there is a happy medium between "the wizard's knock and invisibility spells put the rogue's Open Locks and Stealth skills to shame", and "the rogue outclasses the wizard in his knowledge of Arcana, History and Spellcraft."