Spell Philosophy you would like to see

[MooMan68]

What the comments here indicate to me is that we really need modules for entire magic systems.

Vancian, AEDU, Magic at cost, wild magic, spell point, etc.

Each with one or more classes representing it, and maybe with some discussion about how the selection affects magic items, etc.

DM's can allow one or more magic system in their campaign as they see fit.

For instance, I would never allow an AEDU martial character in one of my campaigns. Unless I suppose the player (or somebody!) could give a narrative justification for it that I could accept. But I *can* imagine reskinning a class with such abilities as a new type of magic.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

What the comments here indicate to me is that we really need modules for entire magic systems.

Vancian, AEDU, Magic at cost, wild magic, spell point, etc.

Each with one or more classes representing it, and maybe with some discussion about how the selection affects magic items, etc.

DM's can allow one or more magic system in their campaign as they see fit.

This is an interesting way of accomplishing what it seems WoTC is trying to do. With each system of magic having one or more classes using that system, it becomes easy for a DM to say: in our new campaign, there are warlocks rather than sorcerers as well as arcanists instead of wizards (even if in the campaign, they are still called sorcerers and wizards). This quickly encapsulates the modules the DM will be using as well as the possible flavour and mechanics that will be utilized.

A very interesting idea.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Kingreaper]

The problem is this zombies have one desire to feed on living flesh how does charm work does it make it think you are not living flesh. A zombie will turn on and eats its spouse or children that they loved more than life when they were alive.

As for the golem it takes orders it does not want to be your friend that is not part of its programming so why would charm work on that.

Charm Monster wouldn't do anything significant for either of them. They treat you like their best friend. Well, a zombie would eat it's best friend, so yeah...
But that doesn't mean they should be immune to ALL mind-affecting spells. Dominate, for example, doesn't require them to understand concepts such as "friendship" it just requires them to obey mental commands.

Being blanket immune to mind-affecting just doesn't make sense.

Also, it results in ridiculous oddities such as "Hmm, I'll polymorph into a plant creature, retaining my own mind, but becoming immune to mind-affecting abilities because plants, even those with hopes, desires, thoughts, and plans for world domination, are 'mindless'"

 

[Elf Witch]

Charm Monster wouldn't do anything significant for either of them. They treat you like their best friend. Well, a zombie would eat it's best friend, so yeah...
But that doesn't mean they should be immune to ALL mind-affecting spells. Dominate, for example, doesn't require them to understand concepts such as "friendship" it just requires them to obey mental commands.

Being blanket immune to mind-affecting just doesn't make sense.

Also, it results in ridiculous oddities such as "Hmm, I'll polymorph into a plant creature, retaining my own mind, but becoming immune to mind-affecting abilities because plants, even those with hopes, desires, thoughts, and plans for world domination, are 'mindless'"

I don't agree that they should be able to be dominated they basically have a lizard mind feed feed feed at least that is how I view zombies. Control undead works just fine on them.

Now more intelligent undead that is a different story.

I would like to see less blanket resistance and more fine tuning.

 

[Grazzt]

keep In mind Vancian magic is confirmed.
For myself, I would like to see:

1) If there is a roll to hit, there should be no Saving Throw for the damage portion of the spell, (just like weapons).

I'm good with this one

2) Some partial effect even with a successful save, in 3e high levels it was too easy to have high Saving Throw bonuses.

Some spells maybe (like disintegrate dealing damage on a successful save), sure. But not all spells.

3) Set durations, not random durations.

Nah. I like durations like 3 rounds + 1 round/level, or whatever. Not hard to track really as player or DM.

4) No Spell Resistance, ( monsters can have save bonuses for rider effects...a hag might all be immune to Hold Person, but should take Magic Missle damage).

Disagree. Some monsters should have a form of SR. It forces players/characters to think outside the norm and come up with creative ways to kill stuff.

5) No Categorical Nerfs to classes of magic...ie Undead are immune to Charm or Illusion magic.

Disagree here too. Same reasons as above. Forces players to think of creative ways to bypass or deal with the situation at hand.

 

[Grazzt]

What dilemma? Either the DM adapts the campaign, or the player plays another character. And I would normally favor the second, since there are also other players at the table and adapting to all of them may be impossible.

Agreed. If the beguiler (or any class, race, whatever) doesn't fit the theme of the campaign, then DM can adapt (if possible) or player chooses from an allowed class/race/whatever is in question. (My campaign since 1e for example...no halflings or gnomes. Players were told up front. Wasn't an issue.)

 

[Kingreaper]

I don't agree that they should be able to be dominated they basically have a lizard mind

And lizards can be dominated.

3.x is beloved by people who want a "realistic" D&D, but it doesn't even manage to be self-consistent.

 

[boredgremlin]

Spell Schools
I also like the way FC re-envisioned spell schools. In their system, the Mage class is the only true “Spellcasting” base class. Priests gain other abilities and can, through their domains, gain spell-like abilities (e.g. cast X spell Y times per day). If you want to mimic a D&D Cleric, you would play a Mage with the Cleric specialty. As such, there is no longer a divide between “Arcane” and “Divine” spells. There are just “Spells”.

Under this system you then have 8 Schools, each made up of spells from 3 Disciplines. Each spell belongs to only 1 Discipline, which is another major change from old D&D spells, and IMHO a good change. I think D&D could use to relook at spell schools.

Channeler: Combative school that taps and controls primal forces.
* Energy: creates fire, light, sound (usually in destructive fashion)
* Force: creates invisible mass that can be shaped and directed
* Weather: manipulates the environment and atmosphere

Conjurer: controls the building blocks of the physical world
* Compass: alters time, speed, position and size
* Conversion: changes the shape and properties of matter
* Creation: creates matter from nothing

Enchanter: effects life in all forms
* Charm: influence minds and emotions
* Healing: repair and refresh the body and mind
* Nature: sways plants and animals

Preserver: focused on protecting and liberating places and people
* Glory: invoke righteous fury, promote excellence and victory in battle
* Seals: form magical glyphs and impediments
* Warding: prevent and deflect harm

Prophet: spells about the worlds beyond ours, as well as what ours might become
* Blessing: reveal cosmic splendor, raising the body, mind, and spirit
* Calling: channel and summon from the fringes of this world, and beyond
* Foresight: predict and manifest the future

Reaper: spells of suffering, death, pain, fear, and corruption
* Affliction: bring lasting suffering, commonly as curses
* Necromancy: explore the veil between death and undeath
* Shadow: harnesses the power of darkness

Seer: unique insights about the mechanics of the known world.
* Artifice: exposes and transforms the inner workings of machines, magic items, and spells
* Divination: gleans details about the past and present
* Word: derives power from language

Trickster: spells that make truth of untruth.
* Illusion: projects false images and feelings
* Secrets: invents lies and reveals truths
* Shapeshifting: transforms the body

Well I would like to see both vancian and 4e magic tossed in a barrel of napalm and dropped on a tiefling as core village.......

But since that seems to be out of the question I would like the schools of magic to be totally redone. the way above seems much better and I could go for it.

But then take the entire spell list and blend it in a sacred cow smoothie and use it to put out that village from earlier. (gotta hide the evidence)

Come up with an internally consistent system for creating spells and determining their power and level. SHOW THAT SYSTEM IN THE PHB. And let players create their own spells if they want.

Put sample spell lists in the PHB for each school and let those be commonly known spells in the world.

Include consequences that make magic dangerous the way warhammer systems do but not quite as bad as call of cthulu. Something that makes low level magic routine for powerful casters but higher level stuff risky.

Take feat style powers associated with each school of magic and make them at-will powers for magic users. Something cantrip level power or maybe up to 3e 1st level spell strength so that wizards arent throwing darts or cowering behind their stick after they use their one crappy Magic missile spell.

Thats how I would do it if i had to use vancian slots.

 

[Elf Witch]

And lizards can be dominated.

3.x is beloved by people who want a "realistic" D&D, but it doesn't even manage to be self-consistent.

A lizard is not a zombie it is actually more evolved than one. Zombies like a lot of undead are driven by one force the need to feed it consumes them. There is no higher brain function left. Which is why I understand the reason mind control won't work on them. And I don't find it unrealistic at all. Put me down for spells have limitations on doing certain things. If you want to control undead like zombies become a necromancer and takes spells that do that sort of thing. It gives the game more flavor that way.


I think it does a pretty good job of providing a simulation is it perfect at it well no but then I have yet to find a game that is perfect.

 

[PeacemakerSG]

Well I would like to see both vancian and 4e magic tossed in a barrel of napalm and dropped on a tiefling as core village.......

But since that seems to be out of the question I would like the schools of magic to be totally redone. the way above seems much better and I could go for it.

But then take the entire spell list and blend it in a sacred cow smoothie and use it to put out that village from earlier. (gotta hide the evidence)

Come up with an internally consistent system for creating spells and determining their power and level. SHOW THAT SYSTEM IN THE PHB. And let players create their own spells if they want.

Put sample spell lists in the PHB for each school and let those be commonly known spells in the world.

Include consequences that make magic dangerous the way warhammer systems do but not quite as bad as call of cthulu. Something that makes low level magic routine for powerful casters but higher level stuff risky.

Take feat style powers associated with each school of magic and make them at-will powers for magic users. Something cantrip level power or maybe up to 3e 1st level spell strength so that wizards arent throwing darts or cowering behind their stick after they use their one crappy Magic missile spell.

Thats how I would do it if i had to use vancian slots.

This is very very close to the system that I have already created. Now if I could have a little more spare time and a portion of the funding that WOTC has, I could get the project complete and save Wizards (Monte, et. al.) the effort.