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5E Spell Point Warlocks?

Xeviat

Adventurer
Supporter
How much more powerful would Warlocks be if they were converted to spell points?

Right now, if you give the warlock 2 short rests per 1 long rest, and convert all their slots to spell points, you get the following amount of points:

Level​
Spell Points​
Warlock​
1​
4​
6​
2​
6​
12​
3​
14​
18​
4
17
18
5​
27​
30​
6
32
30
7
38
36
8​
44​
36​
9​
57​
42​
10​
64​
42​
11
73
72
12
73
72
13
83
82
14
83
82
15
94
93
16
94
93
17​
107​
127​
18​
114​
127​
19
123
127
20
133
127

I highlighted the lines where the warlock total was within 10% of the Spell Point rules total.

They're reasonably close at 11 of the 20 levels. Averaged out, the warlock ends up with 106% of the SP of the base spell casters. That's really dang close (and shows me they really thought through the 2 short rests thing). Switching the warlock to spell points would allow one to smooth the progression as well.

But, how much of a power boost would it be? It would free up the warlock to use a lot more low level effects. There are many low level spells that don't scale properly that would suddenly be more interesting to use. Shield could be problematic for those that get it (Hexblades I think?). And, an argument can be made that the Warlock has invocations to give them access to low level magical effects without using their precious spell slots, since the Warlock only has 2 of them for the bulk of the levels where the game tends to be played.

I like spell points. I haven't had a chance to play with them since 3E's Psionics. I'm curious as to how they've worked out for people.
 

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houser2112

Explorer
I played a wizard using the spell point system, and I really enjoyed it, being a fan of 3.5 psionics. That campaign only lasted until 4th level, so I didn't get to really exercise the flexibility of spell points, unfortunately.

If you want to see what a warlock using spell points might look like, check out Kibblestasty's Psion.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I think warlocks would be a lot more powerful with spell points. You point out a lot of the reasons already, plus many of the spells that a warlcok could cast they wouldn't need at their max level, so they would be getting the same utility PLUS more spells.

Plus it takes away something unique - I don't want the classes to all feel the same as each other. At the very least, leave it per rest with the 1/3 fraction of points, not the full amount.
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
Supporter
I think warlocks would be a lot more powerful with spell points. You point out a lot of the reasons already, plus many of the spells that a warlcok could cast they wouldn't need at their max level, so they would be getting the same utility PLUS more spells.

Plus it takes away something unique - I don't want the classes to all feel the same as each other. At the very least, leave it per rest with the 1/3 fraction of points, not the full amount.
OH it would definitely be with a 1/3rd the fraction of the spell point total, it wouldn't be the total amount.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
I did a bunch of math and thinking one time and determined that a spell-points warlock should get roughly 2 spell points per level. Comparing this to your spell point totals divided by 3 to see how they differ:

LevelSP = 2 * levelSP = Sum of spell slot costsDifference
1220
2440
3660
486+2
510100
61210+2
71412+2
81612+4
91814+4
102014+6
112224-2
1224240
132627-1
142827+1
153031-1
163231+1
173442-8
183642-6
193842-4
204042-2

So, using 2*level is better in late tier-2 (as much as a 5th-level spell better at level 10) but much worse in tier-3. This is because the warlock's actual spell points have massive discontinuities at levels 11 and 17, by adding a whole 'nother 5th-level spell slot. Personally I think one of the nice things about spell-point systems is that you can provide smoother curves, avoiding these sorts of sudden power jumps.
 

IMO it would increase their power substantially, as well as their utility. Which would make them seem very similar to wizards, and I don't see a benefit in doing that.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
IMO it would increase their power substantially, as well as their utility. Which would make them seem very similar to wizards, and I don't see a benefit in doing that.
I agree with this. Warlocks already have patrons, pacts, and invocations - also giving them casting on par with the full caster classes would be overkill. They are limited in number of slots on purpose.
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
Supporter
I agree with this. Warlocks already have patrons, pacts, and invocations - also giving them casting on par with the full caster classes would be overkill. They are limited in number of slots on purpose.

This has been part of my thinking. Changing them to spell points may require changing how invocations work, giving less at-will stuff and instead expanding on what they can do with their points.
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
Supporter
I did a bunch of math and thinking one time and determined that a spell-points warlock should get roughly 2 spell points per level. Comparing this to your spell point totals divided by 3 to see how they differ:

LevelSP = 2 * levelSP = Sum of spell slot costsDifference
1220
2440
3660
486+2
510100
61210+2
71412+2
81612+4
91814+4
102014+6
112224-2
1224240
132627-1
142827+1
153031-1
163231+1
173442-8
183642-6
193842-4
204042-2

So, using 2*level is better in late tier-2 (as much as a 5th-level spell better at level 10) but much worse in tier-3. This is because the warlock's actual spell points have massive discontinuities at levels 11 and 17, by adding a whole 'nother 5th-level spell slot. Personally I think one of the nice things about spell-point systems is that you can provide smoother curves, avoiding these sorts of sudden power jumps.

I like 2 spell points per level too.

So, my reason for this is I'm interested in trying out converting all the spellcasters to short rest spell points of 2 points per level (or 1 per level for the half casters). I'd like everyone to be on short rest recovery for adventure pacing, and I'd like to see how it plays out. I'm just wondering how much work it will require on the warlock
 


Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
This has been part of my thinking. Changing them to spell points may require changing how invocations work, giving less at-will stuff and instead expanding on what they can do with their points.
Takign away their uniqueness to make them more like everyone else seems why have a separate class. I would go in the opposite direction.
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
Supporter
Takign away their uniqueness to make them more like everyone else seems why have a separate class. I would go in the opposite direction.

I'd rather see the warlock as a nearly fully at-will class as it is. What I'm wondering is would a spell point warlock be too powerful with it's invocations. Getting a feel for that would help me get a feel for how short rest spell points would affect the other casters, if they'd need invocation-like toys or if the perceived cheapness of low level spells would make them feel practically at-will.
 


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