D&D 5E Spell Preparation: Leaving Slots Open

[Sword of Spirit]

I still think the fact that the Playtest documents used precisely identical "when" and "a number of spells equal to" language, while having "you can prepare some spells later in the day" language later on, proves that the "when"/"equal" language (AND "you can change" language!) does not inherently mean you cannot prepare later in the day. If it did, that would mean the original documents were overtly self-contradictory for a very substantial portion of the Playtest's run, which seems odd considering all the "prepared" casters used the exact same text (despite some, like the Druid, getting added later). I really have no more interest in arguing the point, though, so if that isn't persuasive to you, that's fine by me.

I'm not really going to argue either, I just sort of poked my head into this thread and haven't been following all the posts. But I do want to bring up that the fact that some of the playtest packets (including the last one) explicitly stated that you can leave slots open, but then the final rules left that part out, seems to me to imply that the intention was not to include that functionality in the published game.

 

[occam]

You can prepare a smaller list, but you still have the 6th spell be one from the prior day. Unless you can find a rule that lets you "unprepare" a spell (I can't), or fill a spell preparation with nothing (I can find nothing), then any excess remains filled with the spell from the day before.

No, you don't prepare individual spells, you prepare a list of spells. When you change the list, you aren't preparing some spells to change and leaving the rest alone. You can think of it that way in the game if you'd like, but the rules don't speak of it that way. You prepare a new list, which replaces the old one, and which may or may not have spells in common with the previous list. This is the distinction [MENTION=94389]jrowland[/MENTION] was also making.

Not that this really matters. There's no benefit to preparing a list with less than the full complement of spells. Preparing a smaller list doesn't give you any additional flexibility, according to RAW.

 

[CapnZapp]

I still think the fact that the Playtest documents used precisely identical "when" and "a number of spells equal to" language, while having "you can prepare some spells later in the day" language later on, proves that the "when"/"equal" language (AND "you can change" language!) does not inherently mean you cannot prepare later in the day. If it did, that would mean the original documents were overtly self-contradictory for a very substantial portion of the Playtest's run, which seems odd considering all the "prepared" casters used the exact same text (despite some, like the Druid, getting added later). I really have no more interest in arguing the point, though, so if that isn't persuasive to you, that's fine by me.

Nobody is arguing (or rather, should be arguing) you can't read the rules to allow partial prep.

We're arguing you SHOULD not read the rules in such a way, and only in the special case of "forum arguments" as opposed to the (hopefully) much more common case of "playing tonite with me mates".

 

[aramis erak]

Because the issue is:

Can you prepare a list of 6 spells (of 6 possible) one day
and then
Prepare another list of 5 spells (of 6 possible) another day

There is no swapping of spells, there is no "null" spell. You simply prepare a smaller list.

The only time your list would ever be less than maximum is when you have just leveled up and haven't prepared spells since. Nothing "unprepares" a spell except replacing it in the list.

 

[jodyjohnson]

So last night's game (yes, this is hypothethetical, I'm a DM who never gets to be a Player), we sit around yammering around the fire for 3 hours, then hit the hay at 10pm. After 8 full hours of sleep, I am awoken by the sounds of combat and rush to aid the party.

3 Questions:
Have I completed a long rest? (I assume yes)
Do I have spells prepared? (I assume yes)
Can I prepare spells after the combat? (General consensus seems to be no, I did not prepare immediately after a long rest)

So in order to prepare spells, I would need to not claim a long rest and its benefits, but rather rely on the previous days remaining resources. Then return to sleep for another hour or two (it has been confirmed you can continue a long rest after interruption), then get up and claim a long rest and its benefits including being able to prepare spells.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry but now you're acting as a rules lawyer, trying to poke holes in the defense.

The answer to all these questions are: ask yourself, since you're the DM.

Sorry if you're genuinely curious about fellow DM's opinions. If so, I urge you to start a new thread without all the baggage of this one, since this one has developed into a program for weaning 3e style DMs away from that kind of rules-reading... Cheers

 

[jrowland]

The only time your list would ever be less than maximum is when you have just leveled up and haven't prepared spells since. Nothing "unprepares" a spell except replacing it in the list.

So you agree then! You can have a list with less spells than level plus mod! (j/k - you clearly don't agree in principle)

The rules only specify that you can prepare Level plus ability mod (L+A) number of spells. I think everyone can agree that you can't prepare more. This is an upper (soft - because domain spells etc) limit to the number of spells on the prepared list. But the rules for changing the list are rules for changing the list, not changing spells. In other words, List A versus List B.

Now RAW, I think the rules specify (L+A) as the size of the list. So RAW, yes, you can't have "empty" prepared spells if you read RAW as absolute in the list size (ie you "MUST" prepare L+A even though that language is not used). I can accept that as RAW. But, is "nothing" a valid "spell" to put on the list (my null spell argument - certainly not very popular here!)?

But RAI, I think (L+A) is intended to be a max, a balancing limit. So, as RAI, I think it's a valid ruling to allow for less than max prepared. Whether I had a "full" prepared list the previous day or not only matters in terms of prep time. I would argue, that should I rule that you can prepare a smaller list, you need to spend the prep time "unprepping" a spell, but that's not the center of this discussion.

After you prepare a short list, RAW demands you wait until after another long rest to be able to prepare a long list (thereby effectively "filling that slot" as it were) - There is some debate on when that occurs, but I think its fair to say it happens only once by RAW and RAI.

RAF - To allow this as I've written, a spellcaster would have to purposely limit their prepared list. During "downtime" this might not be a bad thing, but in the middle of an adventure this is a penalty: you have less choices for that adventure day. Then following a long rest you have the ability to increase flexibility If and only if the adventure allows for enough prep time to do so and that flexibility can be greater if the DM allows for prepping at any point in after a long rest (such as a few minutes before you need the spell). Given that there is penalty that almost perfectly balances with the reward of flexibility, I don't see this as a balance problem. It can be narrative/gamist/meta-game problem (ie PC preps small list during downtime so as to have flexibility on day one of adventure) but that is a table problem. So it is fun? (that is rhetorical, we all have to answer that to ourselves and our table).

 

[jodyjohnson]

The answer to all these questions are: ask yourself, since you're the DM.

Thankfully, I do that, and then the player responds:

Tell your DM he's wrong.

And I laugh.

I didn't realize "getting attacked at dawn" was such a white room, corner case.

My ruling was stated a few pages back - prepare once between each long rest - the timing is flexible.

 

[Mistwell]

No, you don't prepare individual spells, you prepare a list of spells. When you change the list, you aren't preparing some spells to change and leaving the rest alone. You can think of it that way in the game if you'd like, but the rules don't speak of it that way. You prepare a new list, which replaces the old one, and which may or may not have spells in common with the previous list. This is the distinction [MENTION=94389]jrowland[/MENTION] was also making.

Not that this really matters. There's no benefit to preparing a list with less than the full complement of spells. Preparing a smaller list doesn't give you any additional flexibility, according to RAW.

OK if you view it as a list, you can only prepare a list once a day. Seems we come to the same conclusion regardless of whether you view it as a list or individual spells. Either way you still can't get that spell prepared later in the day once you've prepared after a long rest that day.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

The rules only specify that you can prepare Level plus ability mod (L+A) number of spells. I

Seems pretty clear to me that you must prepare Level + Ability Mod.

"…a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom Modifier + Your Cleric Level (minimum of 1 spell)."

Not "less than or equal to".