Spellcaster Prestige Classes: Balanced?

[Chacal]

If you look at this from a rules point of view, you only need to know that the PrC gives something up. Balance is entirely different. A fighter, of almost any stripe, is not balanced with a rogue in a non-combat game. That is a much harder issue than simple rules balance, a prime reason why being a DM isn't an easy job.

You're right !
I admit that the type of campaign I DM introduces a bias to the way I view
PrC Balance. But even in a rule perspective, one has to valuate the potential advantages and drawbacks of a PrC, and we can tell if what the class gives up is significant (in most campaigns) or not compared to the abilities gained.

So, Game balance is harder than rule balance, but it's still made easier if some rule balance is done by taking the style of play into account.


Chacal

 

[Jens]

The problem I have isn't with PrCs being more powerful than core classes - I expect that. It's that the spellcaster PrCs that give full spell progression require almost no sacrifice on the part of the character taking them, while the same isn't true for non-spellcaster PrCs.

Well, sadly this is the way spellcasters work. The Wizard and Sorc just don't have a whole lot going for them other than their spells. They've got the worst bab, worst HD, and only one good saving throw. Wizards get some bonus feats and Sorcs get a better familiar but that's about it. There just isn't a whole lot else to give up. This is why PrC's that don't give full spellcasting benefits need to offer something pretty substantial in tradeoff. Some existing PrC's do this well, others do not.

Another way of resolving this "PrCs are too good issue" would be to look at the base classes and make it more attractive to stick with them. For example, clerics/sorcerers/wizards could be modified like this:

Clerics: Give domains more slowly, maybe one at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th (or until the deity offers no more.) This could be balanced by reducing the number of spells per day, maybe one less of each level (a 'nerf' that affects PrCs as well). Effect: PrC'ing would 'cost' domains.

Sorcerers: 4 skill points per level and/or bonus feats only applicable to sorcerer spells (thinking of things like eschew materials, spell themantics, improved counterspell, heighten spell, etc.; something appropriate for sorcerers, I think those are appropriate but rarely cost-effective). I'm not sure how this should be balanced (maybe use Monte Cook's alternate spell list with some of the 'best' spells bumped a level?), but some would say the sorcerer could use a boost anyway. Effect: PrC'ing would 'cost' skill points and/or feats.

Wizards: Separate the 2 free spells at each level from "+1 spellcasting level". Effect: PrC'ing would 'cost' free spells.

Imo, something like this (tinkering with the base classes) would be simpler than balancing all the hundreds of PrCs one-by-one.

 

[Caliber]

Wizards: Separate the 2 free spells at each level from "+1 spellcasting level". Effect: PrC'ing would 'cost' free spells.

... uh ... I thought the free spells WERE seperated from "+1 spellcasting level"?

Am I wrong?

 

[Jens]

Well it may be... now you make me doubt my memory. But if they are separate, then I think the wizard have a reasonable amount of automatic losses when taking a PrC.

Anyway, those suggestions for clerics/sorcs/wizards were only meant as ideas, things I came up with as I was typing.

Edit: The main point was to somehow modify the base classes instead of the PrCs. What do you think about that?

 

[LokiDR]

You're right !
I admit that the type of campaign I DM introduces a bias to the way I view
PrC Balance. But even in a rule perspective, one has to valuate the potential advantages and drawbacks of a PrC, and we can tell if what the class gives up is significant (in most campaigns) or not compared to the abilities gained.

So, Game balance is harder than rule balance, but it's still made easier if some rule balance is done by taking the style of play into account.


Chacal

We can all see PrCs that haven't had that balance. *cough*incantantrix*cough* But that doesn't mean others lack the rule balance. In any system with more than few classes, there will be good ones and bad ones. The goal is to limit the range.

 

[Caliber]

Well it may be... now you make me doubt my memory. But if they are separate, then I think the wizard have a reasonable amount of automatic losses when taking a PrC.

Anyway, those suggestions for clerics/sorcs/wizards were only meant as ideas, things I came up with as I was typing.

Edit: The main point was to somehow modify the base classes instead of the PrCs. What do you think about that?

I realize you weren't addressing me directly but ...

I honestly don't see much of a balance issue with Full Caster Progression PrC, unless you want to get into the inbalance between a PrC with Full Progression and one with only 1/2.

I liked the idea of giving PrC that don't have Full Caster Progression abilities that increased the characters Caster Level, without increasing spells known or spells per day. That sounded pretty interesting.

I think buffing up the Core Classes isn't that good of an idea. I understand the concept, but people already think Clerics are over powered. Giving them two extra Domains, even over many levels, probably wouldn't be a good idea.

 

[Spatula]

... uh ... I thought the free spells WERE seperated from "+1 spellcasting level"?

Am I wrong?

Yes. See page 10 of the D&D FAQ. If wizards didn't get their free spells, then logically sorcerers would not learn any new spells, either - but clerics and druids would, since they automatically know every spell for all spell levels they are capable of casting. Wouldn't be very fair for the arcane casters if it worked like that.

 

[Jens]

Ah, thanks I found it.

But that says that the wizard's two free spells at each level is included in the "+1 spellcasting level" benefit. I am suggesting that maybe it should be a separate benefit of the wizard class itself, not of wizardly spellcasting?

Edit: I do not propose any such change for sorcerers (keep their spells known progression part of 'sorcerous spellcasting'), but maybe it could be extended to clerical domain spells ans the slots for those? That would be a disadvantage to clerics taking PrCs.