D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[ph0rk]

I don't see that it needs to be tightly quarantined so as to make spells essential to achieve goals like travelling to other parts of the multiverse.

I'd argue the opposite - I don't think spells are required to do things, but rather that because spells exist to do things players (and DMs) assume that is the only way to do them.

Spells let X just happen.

Yep, and in a world where a spell can get you to plane shift, it is completely natural for players (and their characters) to not even consider finding a portal the "hard way". This is a lot like the situation described in the Asimov story The Feeling of Power where even scientists had lost the skill of basic arithmetic, because computers did it for them. Magic is like technology in d&d, and plane shift is Uber and GPS all in one. Could the players get there without it? Sure. But it seems easier for them to find someone with plane shift than to figure it out without it entirely.

I agree that the problem as described is, ultimately, plane shift.

 

[FrogReaver]

Going back to the warlord discussion. It seems to me the Battlemaster makes a solid level 3 warlord.

Theres 2 issues with that
1. You can’t start off with any warlord abilities till level 3
2. There’s very minimal scaling of warlord abilities they do get.

So I think that while conceptually the warlord exists and plays pretty well as a warlord at level 3 (I’ve played very leader fighters at that level before) - mechanically it’s a piece of crap for not scaling.

 

[Don Durito]

I'd argue the opposite - I don't think spells are required to do things, but rather that because spells exist to do things players (and DMs) assume that is the only way to do them.





Yep, and in a world where a spell can get you to plane shift, it is completely natural for players (and their characters) to not even consider finding a portal the "hard way". This is a lot like the situation described in the Asimov story The Feeling of Power where even scientists had lost the skill of basic arithmetic, because computers did it for them. Magic is like technology in d&d, and plane shift is Uber and GPS all in one. Could the players get there without it? Sure. But it seems easier for them to find someone with plane shift than to figure it out without it entirely.

I agree that the problem as described is, ultimately, plane shift.

This is why I advocate separating out high level play into Epic levels.

Because if the most powerful archmage in your game world is Level 12 then you don't have Planeshift.

In other words, if people don't like high level play the solution is not to make it more like low level play.

And if your lower level PCs are seeking out wizards to solve their problems by casting spells for them then well maybe there just aren't any who can?

And is it just me, but aren't portals a bit boring? If you want the players to actually find ways to travel to other planes why can't they do it by sailing into the far west, abseiling down into a bottomless crevasse, climbing the mountain of the gods, or by building a giant hot air balloon and going up to heaven?

 

[Sithlord]

Going back to the warlord discussion. It seems to me the Battlemaster makes a solid level 3 warlord.

Theres 2 issues with that
1. You can’t start off with any warlord abilities till level 3
2. There’s very minimal scaling of warlord abilities they do get.

So I think that while conceptually the warlord exists and plays pretty well as a warlord at level 3 (I’ve played very leader fighters at that level before) - mechanically it’s a piece of crap for not scaling.

I agree. The third level thing is a nonissue for me. Those are apprentice levels. A warlord should be learning combat and proving himself as a warrior first before getting those abilities. Imho.

 

[Maxperson]

It would be nice if the subclass was actually better at that than it is.

It's good enough for what it needs to do. 5e is so easy that there is no bad subclass to play. There are only good and a little bit better.

 

[Maxperson]

I want to be clear that I absolutely do not think this is a universal opinion. But I also think people who sincerely hold it (whether or not they are aware of it) really exist and have for some time. Frex, the folks who got upset about the removal of THAC0 because it meant anyone could play D&D, not just those "smart" enough to calculate with descending AC. The lines are usually a hell of a lot more fuzzy than that, though, so I don't really want to call out any specific position or person today; the THAC0 example is just conveniently blatant and explicit.

I really dislike that argument. My 7 year old can do basic addition and subtraction. It doesn't require smarts to use THAC0. I personally believe that it's laziness rather than lack of intelligence that caused people to dislike it. There couldn't have been that many people playing D&D who weren't as smart as your average 7 year old.

 

[Undrave]

The fact that a class is not all that popular doesn't seem a good reason to make it more powerful and hence more attractive. That just means that if/when it is played it will be overpowered!

I mean, it's not as if any table's game of D&D will suffer because no one at the table cares to play a druid.

I played a Shepperd Druid and I thought Conjure Animal was TOO STRONG. Especially if your DM lets you pick and doesn't 'gotcha!' you with useless animals. And the Druid could just cheese all sorts of stealth mission and exploration challenge through clever use of Wild Shape. I felt the Druid was too powerful and I got bored of it after a while. Then I shifted to a Monk and the whiplash was too much... I should have went with the Rogue concept I had in mind... hmm...

This is something I don't quite get. Why is spell casting necessary to travel to diverse locations, including other planes? Or to put it another way, how is a group of D&D players meant to work out that an ability/skill check - probably Intelligence (Arcana) - can't be used to find a way between planes?

Page 5 of the Basic PDF talks about the fundamental importance of magic, and links it to chapters 10 and 11 (ie not the chapters about ability checks). But how do we know that it needs magic, in that sense, to travel between planes? Why can't a fighter use a skill check to find a magical crossing or portal?

Like the 4e Epic Destiny (was that Horizon Walker or something else?) who can just WALK to any place in the multiverse in about 24 hrs by finding 'shortcuts'. It's as reliable as a spell... but it's a MARTIAL Epic Destiny.

 

[Undrave]

It's good enough for what it needs to do. 5e is so easy that there is no bad subclass to play. There are only good and a little bit better.

Tell that to the Four Element Monk, Wild Magic Sorcerer and Banneret

I really dislike that argument. My 7 year old can do basic addition and subtraction. It doesn't require smarts to use THAC0. I personally believe that it's laziness rather than lack of intelligence that caused people to dislike it. There couldn't have been that many people playing D&D who weren't as smart as your average 7 year old.

I think it's just that 'low is bad, high is good' is just way easier to grok as a universal concept in a game. Having certain rolls where low is bad and other where low is good didn't feel coherent ya know? Or 'natural' for lack fo a better term. Its not more difficult, it's just more fiddly than it needs to be.

 

[Maxperson]

Yep, and in a world where a spell can get you to plane shift, it is completely natural for players (and their characters) to not even consider finding a portal the "hard way". This is a lot like the situation described in the Asimov story The Feeling of Power where even scientists had lost the skill of basic arithmetic, because computers did it for them. Magic is like technology in d&d, and plane shift is Uber and GPS all in one. Could the players get there without it? Sure. But it seems easier for them to find someone with plane shift than to figure it out without it entirely.

I agree that the problem as described is, ultimately, plane shift.

I think that's more of a DM issue than a Plane Shift issue. If you run a game where high level NPCs with Plane Shift are readily available, then that's where the players will go to get to another plane. If you run a game like mine where high level NPCs are rare, usually busy with their own business, and not always helpful, you will see the players look for other options in addition to Plane Shift.

 

[Maxperson]

Tell that to the Four Element Monk, Wild Magic Sorcerer and Banneret

I will! I mean seriously, it's really hard to do poorly at 5e.

I think it's just that 'low is bad, high is good' is just way easier to grok as a universal concept in a game. Having certain rolls where low is bad and other where low is good didn't feel coherent ya know? Or 'natural' for lack fo a better term. Its not more difficult, it's just more fiddly than it needs to be.

That, too. My point was that it's certainly not a lack of intelligence. If you look at the 3e to hit progressions, they match THAC0. THAC0 didn't go away in 3e. It just changed a bit to as you say, make it easier to grok.