D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[The Annihilargh]

But you would still see plenty of subclass that get a third attack, for exemple, outside the Champion.

Oh, okay. I see what you're getting at. Sorry for getting aggressive.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think part of the problem with martial classes is that they scale very little except at levels 5, 11.

If a level 5 fighter is roughly balanced against a level 5 wizard (and o think that’s the case) then a level 7 fighter is falling behind a level 7 wizard and a level 9 fighter is starting to be way behind a level 9 wizard.

the third attack at level 11 helps offset the difference but 6th level spells are quite powerful and minimize the relative impact of that 3rd attack.

IMO, the only martial class past 5th level that is well designed is a Paladin as he continues to receive substantial bonuses almost every non-asi level. No other martial class really does this.

 

[Krachek]

It all comes down to players wanting things that contradict each other.

There is just TOO MUCH D&D fans want the single fighter class to do narratively and mechanically.

It can't be a simple class for noobs and tired folk, a raw roleplay class for skilled play crowd, and a tactical class for strategists that include every single warrior from real world and fantasy.

there is millions players out there, and a hundred active poster in this forum. So our debates have little impact on the overall game.
Still the champion have been made simple on purpose, while the BM and the EK have more complexity. You still need to raise the bar, MC your fighter with a rogue, a wizard, a bard and you will have a character that fit your expectation.
5ed have been made on purpose with a variable level of complexity, you want to restraint it to a more complex game only?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I think we've got to uncouple concept from mechanics. I don't think the 5e Battlemaster has great warlord mechanics. I do think it fulfills the concept though. I think there is some objective truth in there and not just truth 'for you' as you described it.

I think there's potentially some pitfalls with creating conceptually similar but mechanically different classes. Which is why I'm so adamant to point out the concept is there.




So Warlord in 5e isn't a class or subclass and so the concept of Leadery Fighter can be achieved via Battlemaster Manuevers and feats, right?

It fulfills it to the same degree that an Eldritch KNight fulfills being a wizard. They really could have cut out all classes but Fighter, Rogue and Paladin. All your spell casting needs are covered! Why do you want to waste space on a cleric, wizard, sorcerer, bard, warlock, barbarian, or ranger?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If a fighter wants to shine out of combat. Pay attention to the plot of an adventure. Know all the NPC’s by name. Learn what they all do and how they relate. You will be picking up clues that others making die rolls will completely miss.

That isn't class based. Casters can do that, and till get narrative overrides fluffed as spells. But the second non-casters ask for narrative overrides fluffed as skills or feats of prowess, the hissy fits about "muh realism" start.

 

[FrogReaver]

It fulfills it to the same degree that an Eldritch KNight fulfills being a wizard. They really could have cut out all classes but Fighter, Rogue and Paladin. All your spell casting needs are covered! Why do you want to waste space on a cleric, wizard, sorcerer, bard, warlock, barbarian, or ranger?

The concept for an eldritch knight is spelled out as a mix of fighter stuff and wizard stuff. The concept for an eldritch knight is not the same as a concept for a wizard. Conceptually they are different things. So I really don’t get the substance of this point that’s been brought up repeatedly.

So yes, an ek makes a poor wizard but it was never designed to fulfill that concept in the first place.

A Battlemaster though was designed to be able to fulfill the warlord concept.

 

[Minigiant]

That's not a problem at all. Subclasses exists exactly for this purpose.

Subclasses can't handle that purpose well. They barely pass the threshold.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Subclasses can't handle that purpose well. They barely pass the threshold.

Well, I disagree. They mostly do pretty well. Sure, things always could be improved, but the current situation is infinitely preferable to class bloat.

 

[Undrave]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, x4.
I like your thinking!!!

Speaking of this idea, it reminds me of the game Rondo of Swords on the DS.

The game is a tactical RPG, in the vein of Fire Emblem and co. But the combat system wasn't the usual "move then attack" thing you see all the time. Moving WAS your attack, essentially. You would chart your units' path and whenever the unit would go through an enemy unit they would attack, and whenever they would pass through an ally unit, that unit could grant them a buff (specific to the unit doing the buffing usually). And enemies can do the same to you so your positioning could be important as you don't want to leave too many units bunched up together.

Now, spell casters were also very different in this system and very difficult to use. You needed to cast your spell BEFORE moving, because moving would end your turn. That means you really had to anticipate where enemies and allies would be at the start of your turn. It was TOO hard though because I ended up neglecting my caster unit the whole game and got bit in the rear when the story landed me in a scenario where my main character is abandoned by everyone but a couple of caster unit and I had to learn on a VERY HARD map how to make them work... oops.

In any case, I'm not quite advocating for that level of difficulty, but if my 'ready action' casting were implemented, I'd make it impossible to move after you start casting, so you have to think about what could happen between the time you start casting and the time you let your spell loose. That fireball can do a lot of damage, but will it hit enough targets or will they scatter?

There would probably still be instant effect. Cantrips, for exemple, should probably still work as they do now since they're not strong enough to justify being hampered that way.

 

[Undrave]

That isn't class based. Casters can do that, and till get narrative overrides fluffed as spells. But the second non-casters ask for narrative overrides fluffed as skills or feats of prowess, the hissy fits about "muh realism" start.

I'm frankly tired of the "roll play not role play!" lessons given by folks who can just mind control NPCs or pass through a wall in a single action by trading in their 'influence fiction' tokens.