D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Crimson Longinus]

I raise you the RDJ Sherlock Holmes movie.

Please don't, that was terrible!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Please don't, that was terrible!

You misspelled 'terrific', sir.

 

[Manbearcat]

Sure. That's why Sir Roger Penrose is roughly as good at dodging blows than Muhammad Ali in his prime.

Roger Penrose ability in physics and mathematics has absolutely 0 to do with his proprioception and his speed and accuracy in processing spatial relationships within milliseconds.

Muhammed Ali's proprioception and his speed and accuracy in processing spatial relationships within milliseconds has nothing to do with his ability in physics and mathematics.

The fact that you think that these things are correlated is the problem (which is what my post is about).

These are both functions of neurological capacity (Int in D&D parlance) but they aren't related...because different parts of our neurological system do different things.

Dex is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay downstream of this.

Which is why your statement of Int not being sensible for things like Reflex defense and Initiative is just absurd. And its why your statement that I've quoted above is equally absurd.

 

[Minigiant]

Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma can help a warrior in a fight.

The fact that fans are willing to ague about this is why Poll Option 2 has the most votes but 5e uses Poll Option 3.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Roger Penrose ability in physics and mathematics has absolutely 0 to do with his proprioception and his speed and accuracy in processing spatial relationships within milliseconds.

Muhammed Ali's proprioception and his speed and accuracy in processing spatial relationships within milliseconds has nothing to do with his ability in physics and mathematics.

The fact that you think that these things are correlated is the problem (which is what my post is about).

These are both functions of neurological capacity (Int in D&D parlance) but they aren't related...because different parts of our neurological system do different things.

Dex is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay downstream of this.

Which is why your statement of Int not being sensible for things like Reflex defense and Initiative is just absurd. And its why your statement that I've quoted above is equally absurd.

It's not absurd, because in D&D terms speed and accuracy in processing spatial relationships is part of dex, not int.

 

[Maxperson]

You are wrong the superior technique fighting style grants a battle master maneuver and martial adept feat available to any character grants two more.

Unless you have a magic PHB, I'm not wrong. There is no such fighting style listed.

Such a character is substantially more complex with crap to keep track of all over his character sheet. one-for-one It is also easier to manage slots than daily castings. The wizard does not have to keep track of if he cast darkness or invisibility, just that he cast a 2nd level spell and used a 2nd level slot.

And you are objectively wrong about this. The sheer math combinations of spells and spell slots dwarfs anything you've mentioned. You simply can't be right about this.

Aside from his abilities and choices, every single time he makes an attack roll or ability check he needs to figure out if he or the target is in "direct sunlight".

So do Drow Wizards. If you are going out of your way to add in complexities from outside of Champion, then so can I. Everything you can add from Race and such, so can I. So the Wizard has all of that AND his spells.

I find it pretty easy to manage spell slots, not so easy to manage abilities that vary with short rest vs long rest.

It doesn't matter what you find easy. It is objectively true that there is mathematically far more to track as a Wizard or Cleric than a Champion.

Options do not mean complexity.

Yes they do. The more you have to select from, the more complex the PC is.

The 12th-level champion if he uses the attack action every single turn has to decide how to split his 3 attacks between the 5 different weapons he started with (assuming he did not buy any new ones after 1st level), grappling, shoving or making an unarmed attack. Then he can decide what riders to put on that attack and whether to take action surge and do it again.

LOL Wut? Now you think that buying more weapons makes the Champion more complex and he's going to have to decide which weapon to take out and use with each attack?! C'mon man, you're grasping at straws here.

Since you're bringing out the ridiculous, the Wizard and Cleric also get to use the attack action and decide whether to grapple, shove, etc. in addition to deciding about their spells. They too can have 5 weapons on them to choose from.

 

[Gammadoodler]

No there is not a difference in the mechanics at all.

Hit points (mechanically, RAW) represent (among other things) luck, fighting skill, experience, resolve and the will to live. Expressly and implicitly.

I could 'hit' you and do 22 points of 'luck' reduction (damage) with the 'hit' narrowly missing you (via sheer luck). Or I could 'hit' you and lower your 'resolve points' by 22, with the sword also not actually hitting you (in game) and instead your morale and confidence being affected by my demonstration of superior fighting skill.

Hit points are deliberately, intentionally, and expressly not 'meat'. They are extreme abstractions of a multiple of factors including:

• fighting skill,
• experience,
• luck,
• resolve,
• the will to live and fight on, and
• health.

How a DM or group chooses to narrate those things is entirely up to them, but mechanically its MORE correct to do it my way, than it is to try and argue that 'every loss of hit points is a meat hit'.



No, the issue isnt with HP. The issue is with people such as yourself that dont understand what HP represent, and what they have always represented through the various editions:

AD&D 1E: These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and / or magical factors. PHB P34.

Only a 'certain' amount of your HP represents actual physical punishment. The remainder (the significant portion at higher levels) represents fighting skill (parrying, dodging etc) luck and 'other'.

This has largely remained the case in every edition since.

Despite our fighter landing 3 'hits' for 20 odd points of damage each, the first 'hit' was him knocking aside the Ogres clumsy strike, and leaving the Ogre open to a counter attack, the second 'hit' was a dazzling show of martial prowess that demoralized the Ogre and shattered its resolve as the figher leapt into the air, his sword arcing in a huge swathe, and only the final 'hit' was a solid (actual in-game-word stabby) hit, which plunged deep into the Ogres heart.

Thats RAW, and RAI. Thats what HP are, and how they're supposed to be handled. The problem isnt with HP, its with 'HP are meat' interpretations such as yours.

This is definitely an area where there is significant dissonance, and leads to some silly downstream conversations.

For example, the weapons table has differing sized damage dice. Is a dagger markedly less effective at damaging an ogre's luck than a greatsword?

And to @Neonchameleon 's point, whether it's meat damage or luck damage doesn't really change anything.. Whether you say the enemy is "bruised and battered but alive" or "bothered and bewildered but alive", the net result is still an enemy that the fighter has been successfully (we're assuming hits after all) waving a large chunk of steel at for 6 seconds and the creature is not deterred.

 

[Mort]

Unless you have a magic PHB, I'm not wrong. There is no such fighting style listed.

It's a new style offered in Tasha's.

 

[Minigiant]

It's not absurd, because in D&D terms speed and accuracy in processing spatial relationships is part of dex, not int.

Physical vs Mental

Mental speed in D&D, especially 5e, is Intelligence.

In 3e and 4e you could use Int to boost your AC. 5e got rid of it for simplicity.

 

[Maxperson]

It's a new style offered in Tasha's.

Books outside the PHB can't be assumed. Nor can races for that matter. When comparing class complexity, only the classes should be compared. And even at the most complex @ECMO3 can come up for the Champion, Wizards and Clerics are still far more complex.