D&D 5E Spellcasting Using the Recharge Mechanic

[Micah Sweet]

I legit do not understand how. The fantasy of being a spellcaster is to cast spells. That's why we call them "spellcasters" and not...whatever else one might call them.

And before infinite cantrips, spellcasters cast spells every day, if they wanted to. But it's never enough.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

And before infinite cantrips, spellcasters cast spells every day, if they wanted to. But it's never enough.

Except that cantrips fix that problem by letting people have weak but reliable spells. So that they don't need to be casting world-ending spells every single combat. So that you can release some of the tension between the perfectly justifiable frustration of "I came to this to do magic as a Wizard, why do I spend 50% of my time doing literally anything but magic?" and the rational game-design concern of "if we let you cast Vancian spells all the live-long day, it would be stupidly broken."

Though, of course, the real issue is Vancian spellcasting in the first place, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except that cantrips fix that problem by letting people have weak but reliable spells. So that they don't need to be casting world-ending spells every single combat. So that you can release some of the tension between the perfectly justifiable frustration of "I came to this to do magic as a Wizard, why do I spend 50% of my time doing literally anything but magic?" and the rational game-design concern of "if we let you cast Vancian spells all the live-long day, it would be stupidly broken."

Though, of course, the real issue is Vancian spellcasting in the first place, but that's neither here nor there.

They may fix that problem, but they open up a host of others, most notably the ability to blast your enemies with magical energy (disregarding resistance to nonmagical attacks possessed by many, many creatures) forever, from level 1. and that's just the attack cantrips. The other kind are just as bad, when you can do them  forever, from level 1.

I know some people clearly don't care about that, but some do, and I'm one of them.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

They may fix that problem, but they open up a host of others, most notably the ability to blast your enemies with magical energy (disregarding resistance to nonmagical attacks possessed by many, many creatures) forever, from level 1. and that's just the attack cantrips. The other kind are just as bad, when you can do them  forever, from level 1.

I know some people clearly don't care about that, but some do, and I'm one of them.

Perhaps that suggests that such simplistic binary mechanics are not particularly good then, and should be replaced with something that is more robust than wet tissue paper?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like the idea, but I would make it only for each different spell, not any spell.

So if you want to cast 2 fireballs in a row, you need to recharge it.

Then I'd add multiple preparation. If you prepare fireball twice, you can use it two times before you need to recharge.
I have thought about the idea before, but with known casters, it posed a problem. (Maybe known casters don't have that restriction).

 

[DND_Reborn]

I like the idea, but I would make it only for each different spell, not any spell.

So if you want to cast 2 fireballs in a row, you need to recharge it.

Then I'd add multiple preparation. If you prepare fireball twice, you can use it two times before you need to recharge.
I have thought about the idea before, but with known casters, it posed a problem. (Maybe known casters don't have that restriction).

I'm trying to avoid the extra bookkeeping, but there's nothing wrong with the concept otherwise.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Except that cantrips fix that problem by letting people have weak but reliable spells.

If that's all that they were, then I wouldn't have a problem with them.

Re: A recharge mechanic; I've played with some before. They work reasonably well with a level based "it just works this time" mechanic, usually x/day based on level. There was also a casting time of level/2 rounds (I think) if you didn't want to make the recharge roll. So fireball now or spend two rounds gathering the mana to cast it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

If that's all that they were, then I wouldn't have a problem with them.

Okay. What else are they? Keep in mind, I'm already on record in this thread as being not persuaded by the "it overcomes magic resistance" argument. (My response to it is "then make better, more interesting monster mechanics.")

 

[Smythe the Bard]

I haven't done the math so this is a question. If attack cantrips scale in damage naturally but spells don't; is there a possibility that a high level caster will do more damage with the infinite cantrip than say a simple first level spell? I suspect upcasting may come into play.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Okay. What else are they?

Too useful and not weak.

An attack cantrip shouldn't do more damage than a first level spell. Yes, that occurs at higher level, but still it should do a d4 at most, 1pt really. Move earth and shape water should be second level spells. The area is huge, especially with the spamming. Mage hand is okay because it is so weak, but it shouldn't be a means for a thief to use a skill remotely. (I waver on this a smidge since I think that's a special ability of a subclass, however.)

Druidcraft, Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy are good examples of the power level of a cantrip. Minor things, flavorful things. A minor +1 to a roll when you think of a quiet rumble of thunder and a passing shadow when you say "do not take me as a conjuror of cheap tricks!"

(Okay, I've edited this about four times now. This should be good.)

 

[Fanaelialae]

I haven't done the math so this is a question. If attack cantrips scale in damage naturally but spells don't; is there a possibility that a high level caster will do more damage with the infinite cantrip than say a simple first level spell? I suspect upcasting may come into play.

Yeah, it can be the case at high levels. At 17th level a Fire Bolt deals 4d10 (22) vs Magic Missile at 3d4+3 (10.5). That said, there could still technically be uses for 1st level spells over cantrips, albeit situational. Burning Hands is AoE, while Magic Missile can't miss (for example). Realistically though, at high levels you probably want to use your low level spells mostly for utility, so it's basically a non-issue IME.

 

[LordEntrails]

It's an interesting idea, but I've got 2 problems with this. If you are going to force recharge on class abilities, you have to do it for every class, not just casters. Second, it adds a level of book keeping and mechanics that I don't see enough benefit from.

I admit, I like the randomness of it. I like introducing randomness into combat. But, I don't think this is a good way to go about it.

 

[CleverNickName]

Tangent to the thread, but:

I've been experimenting with a dragonborn barbarian in the party, whose breath weapon recharges on a roll of 5-6 on 1d6. It hasn't broken the game, and the player really seems to like it. I can see how it could work for a variety of class features--maybe not every class feature, but a lot of them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Tangent to the thread, but:

I've been experimenting with a dragonborn barbarian in the party, whose breath weapon recharges on a roll of 5-6 on 1d6. It hasn't broken the game, and the player really seems to like it. I can see how it could work for a variety of class features--maybe not every class feature, but a lot of them.

We already do this as well and have been for about two years. Frankly, it just makes more sense IMO. FWIW, we also make it an Attack action so you can combine it with Extra Attack or as an attack outside of your turn (if applicable).

 

[bedir than]

@DND_Reborn can you update this with your current state of thinking?

 

[DND_Reborn]

@DND_Reborn can you update this with your current state of thinking?

Sure, I will when I get home from work tonight.

 

[TwoSix]

I haven't done the math so this is a question. If attack cantrips scale in damage naturally but spells don't; is there a possibility that a high level caster will do more damage with the infinite cantrip than say a simple first level spell? I suspect upcasting may come into play.

High level cantrips are better than 1st level spells by Tier 3 (11th level). 1st level spells are for utility at that point, not damage.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@DND_Reborn can you update this with your current state of thinking?

I've updated the OP with comments from group members.