Spelljammer...just wow

[Warbringer]

And now Wizards is doing the same with Eberron.

Uhhh?

How???

 

[Odhanan]

I can see how both of the examples you cite are true. I cannot see how either of them conforms to Alan's point, which is that a setting must have a CENTRAL conflict, rather than dozens and dozens of little ones.

But I'd love to hear from Psion, because maybe I'm misinterpreting him.

--Erik

Ha! Gotcha... central, yes. Sort of overlooked that one, didn't I?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't know...

A setting that has lots of little conflicts can quickly become one that has a major one. Each one is a potential flashpoint that can go off at any time.

That is, after all, how WW1 started- not from one central conflict, but from a confluence of a variety of tensions all over the world that, according to some, at least, were finally set off by the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand...if for no other reason than some using that as a justification for other inflammatory actions.

IOW, a setting with multiple conflicts, in the hands of an inventive DM, can become just as epic and satisfyingly coherent as any other.

 

[Erik Mona]

I agree, but "lots of little conflicts" is not the central conflict Alan is speaking of, I suspect.

I'm genuinely curious to see if I'm interpreting him correctly, but he's apparently abandoned the thread.

--Erik

PS: I ran a Spelljammer campaign, own about half of the setting, and was one of two evil masterminds behind "Shadow of a Spider Moon." It's one of my favorite D&D settings.

 

[Piratecat]

I'll ping him.

 

[Psion]

I've been pinged... let me gather a few notes here...

In your view, what is the central conflict of the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms campaign setting? For that matter, what is the central conflict of the Eberron campaign setting?

I see one in Dragonlance and I think I see one ("man vs. environment") in Dark Sun, but I'm at a loss to find a "central" conflict in the most popular and longest-running D&D settings.

Forgotten Realms has loads of villain organizations vs. the good guys. Drows vs. surface. Zhents vs. Dales. No matter what region you look at, you can find such a conflict, Erik. It's more about what region you choose to use rather than a global conflict that would explain everything, from my perspective, though the notion of conflict's still there.

For Greyhawk, that's a bit special I think. I see its popularity more as being justified by its status of Classic D&D universe than just what it does present as a setting. Further, I suspect people know Greyhawk personally out of specific modules, like Temple of Elemental Evil, rather than overarching campaign setting products.

I can see how both of the examples you cite are true. I cannot see how either of them conforms to Alan's point, which is that a setting must have a CENTRAL conflict, rather than dozens and dozens of little ones.

But I'd love to hear from Psion, because maybe I'm misinterpreting him.

Okay, I can see that I didn't give the topic the essay-like depth it might have deserved.

Really, I think that this factor has more to do with it's perception in the audience of a setting's would be fans than the actual in-milieu scope of the conflict.

Regarding Greyhawk, Odhanan may be on to something about classic status giving it a benefit that no other d20 setting is ever going to have. That said, I don't think it's the whole story. When we were gaming in Greyhawk as teens, we always made a big deal of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Further, I think that the classic module series set in Greyhawk (like Slavers, Giants, and Drow) were strongly associated with the setting and became a locus for shared experience in the setting.

Forgotten Realms, when it was growing, had the Time of Troubles, but conflicts between certain deities and nations were always highlighted and important, such as the machinions of Grazzt, the Shar/Selune conflict, as well as the threat of the Zhentarium and the Drow/Dales conflicts.

I think that having lots of little conflicts that have the potential to be used by the DM is not so much the same thing as having a larger, more crucial conflict that will likely be used as a central identifying feature of a setting among different groups, and thus build a shared experience regarding what the setting is really about.

I don't want to come across as asserting that this is the one litmus test for whether or not a setting will be successful. I will rephrase to say that I do believe a strong central conflict is a major factor in the success of a setting, and one that Spelljammer lacked that might have given in more enduring and widespread acceptance.

Market position and word of mouth will play parts as well, but among those settings that persevered against the odds and gained a significant and enduring following, I notice that the pronounced nature of a central conflict. Midnight, anyone?

 

[Maldin]

However, as devil's advocate, given the vastness of Voidspace, what were the odds that your ship would bump into something's personal space that many times in a journey at spelljamming speed?

There was a lively discussion on the probability of spelljamming vessels "bumping" into eachother over on the WotC Spelljammer boards in this thread . My theory for reconciling the rules went like so...

The physics of the D&D multiverse is rather different then the RealWorld. For a detailed explanation of the how and why of this, see my "Life, the Multiverse, and Everything" page at http://melkot.com/mysteries/multiverse.html (sorry for the shameless plug, but you may find that it explains the D&D multiverse nicely for you - its what ties my multiverse together)

One of the themes my page discusses is the "Laws of the Multiverse", and the different "forces" (for lack of a better term, I use the capitalized term "Variables"). Two of the Variables are a complimentary pair "Magical Energy" and "Life Energy" (or Vitae).

As a ship travels through the truly astronomical dimensions of wildspace, even the tiniest variations in its course result in huge differences in its final destination. How does a spelljammer plot a course accurate to thousandths or even millionths of a degree? Obviously... he can't! Yet still, the ship always (most times) ends up exactly where it wants to be. Impossible, you say? No, this is inherent in the magical functioning of the helm. Even the slightest inaccuracy in direction would render the helm worthless... jammers would get hopelessly lost every time they plotted a course to some destination that they couldn't physically see (and make visual course corrections on approach).

How does this work? Well, a spelljamming helm actually has a built-in self-correcting functionality that utilizes a sort of "heat-seeking" magical technology... it is literally drawn towards "Magical Energy" and "Life Energy", and its detection capability operates at astronomical distances! Truly a wonder of magical accomplishment (and why the Arcane have the monopoly). Unbeknownst to most jammers, their course is actually deflected by the presence of such concentrations ever so slightly. At these distances, it doesn't take much deflection to result in a "bull's eye", and just enough happens to get travellers where they want to be (most times). Since most destinations have either life, or magic, or both (and most empty space has nothing), the system works. Jammers travelling near eachother would also have their two flight paths deflected towards eachother, almost guaranteeing that they'll approach close enough to drop out of spelljamming speed. This not only would explain why wildspace encounters happen at all, but why wildspace encounters are virtually guaranteed.

Of course, this theory could have game consequences, if the DM so desires. A destination that is totally lacking in Magical or Life Energy (a difficult thing in a magic multiverse) would theoretically be more difficult to find. A malfunctioning helm could be repulsed by the same forces (or neutral), rendering it useless, possibly causing the travellers to become lost for years. Enter "The Lost Patrol" adventure where the PCs (whose helm is functioning) happens upon a group of lost travellers who think that some old war is still raging. I'm sure DMs can come up with other scenarios as well.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more! Including all-new spelljammer ship fold-up models!

 

[Pbartender]

My theory for reconciling the rules went like so...

Allow me to apply Occam's Razor here and propose a far simpler explanation...

Shipping lanes.

Take a look at real shipping for the last two or three thousand years. Whenever a ship goes from point A to point B, there is a certain course that is most advantageous to follow... Because of prevailing weather, dangerous obstacles that must be avoided and sometimes even political considerations, that route will be the one that the vast majority of ships traveling between those two points use.

What that means is, anyone sailing within the shipping lanes is very likely to run across other ships on a fairly regular basis -- that where they all are, after all. Take off into the uncharted phlogiston, and chances are you'll get lost in the vast expanses of Wildspace, wandering aimlessly forever until you starve.

So, most spelljammers may very well be encouranged to stick to those well-used shipping lanes... They're clearly and thoroughly mapped, and if something does go wrong it's the most likely place to get found and rescued.

Plus, this provides a predictable path for piratical excursions against shipping and military invasions of other worlds. Running into an enemy ship might be uncommon, but not necessarily impossible.

What's more, the lanes where ships sail is where all the detrius, flotsam and garbage from said ships would tend to drift and accumulate. Naturally, this will attract the natural scavengers of the phlogiston and the predators that hunt them as well, thus greatly increasing the chances of encountering these creatures as well.

There you go.

Shipping lanes.

 

[Ry]

I like the shipping lanes idea, but I tend to take it in a Babylon 5 / Stargate kind of way. Gates and stellar alignment to get onto major routes between spheres / worlds.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

IRegarding Greyhawk, Odhanan may be on to something about classic status giving it a benefit that no other d20 setting is ever going to have. That said, I don't think it's the whole story. When we were gaming in Greyhawk as teens, we always made a big deal of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Further, I think that the classic module series set in Greyhawk (like Slavers, Giants, and Drow) were strongly associated with the setting and became a locus for shared experience in the setting.

If you're saying shared experience, rather than strong central conflict, the classic modules do probably provide a baseline. But those classic modules definitely didn't provide the kind of strong central conflict seen in the original Dragonlance modules, or integral to the Dark Sun setting. (Incidentally, I would say Dark Sun had two central conflicts, but they worked together: man against environment and overthrowing the sorcerer-kings.)

Forgotten Realms, when it was growing, had the Time of Troubles, but conflicts between certain deities and nations were always highlighted and important, such as the machinions of Grazzt, the Shar/Selune conflict, as well as the threat of the Zhentarium and the Drow/Dales conflicts.

Considering how contentious Time of Troubles was, I don't think you can consider it a selling point. Or much of a central conflict, for that matter, since it was resolved in a single, short, not-terribly-well-regarded module series.

The rest seem to me textbook examples of 'lots of little conflicts.' *None* of those speak to my experience of the Realms, except for the Zhents. My experience of the Realms was focused on Zhentil Keep as the primary antagonist in AD&D, and Thay as the primary antagonist/sometime patron in more recent years. I would never have thought of Grazzt as 'iconic to the realms,' and Shar/Selune is something I don't recall ever dealing with.

I have to go with Erik on this one.

I think that having lots of little conflicts that have the potential to be used by the DM is not so much the same thing as having a larger, more crucial conflict that will likely be used as a central identifying feature of a setting among different groups, and thus build a shared experience regarding what the setting is really about.

Again, I don't think either FR or Greyhawk had this at all. Eberron, which also appears to be doing well, doesn't have it either. Neither did Mystara/the Known World.

I don't want to come across as asserting that this is the one litmus test for whether or not a setting will be successful. I will rephrase to say that I do believe a strong central conflict is a major factor in the success of a setting, and one that Spelljammer lacked that might have given in more enduring and widespread acceptance.

Honestly, the scro/elf conflict in Spelljammer always seemed more central to the setting to me than any conflict in FR or Greyhawk. It seemed like something you could avoid, but not really ignore - if war broke out, your privateering/merchantman/adventurer PCs might not get involved, but only because they made a point of not doing so. The default assumption was that sooner or later you'd probably get sucked into the conflict. At least, that was the impression I got, how I ran the setting, and how I've seen it run.

By contrast, in FR or Greyhawk I never felt like there was a conflict I'd have to actively avoid if I didn't want to participate. Thay invading Rashemen? That's, like, a dozen countries away! Zhents on the move? There's plenty of uninvolved countries. Drow attacking Icewind Dale? Has my character even *heard* of Icewind Dale? The Greyhawk Wars would qualify for Greyhawk... but again, controversial/unpopular setting-shaking event.

Market position and word of mouth will play parts as well, but among those settings that persevered against the odds and gained a significant and enduring following, I notice that the pronounced nature of a central conflict. Midnight, anyone?

Iron Kingdoms, anyone? I don't know, I just don't see it as a major factor.