D&D 5E Spellprepared/known for multiclassed spellcaster

I think that's a conclusion leap there. The rules are clear in the specific that you prepare as a single-class caster, but the single class caster has...what spell slots available? Not clear, since the specific multiclass rules also give combined slot rules. You do need to add "and your spell slots are also those of a single-class caster, for purposes of preparation only but not for slots". Which seems easy for the example we're talking about of Cleric 1, but it's not so easy when you get to Cleric 11/Wizard 9 for example. So now do you need to juggle slots for each in judging preparation for each, while also having combined slots as the multiclass rule? Not so clear to me that's what was intended instead of the much more simple combined slots in the multiclass rules section. This issue is actually up for interpretation I think and no side has the rules "clearly" in their favor.

In that example you could prepare 11 (+wis) clerical spells and 9 (+int) wizard spells. You would have a full set of slots to cast any of these as you wish. The maximum cleric spell level you can prepare is 6th and the maximum wizard spell level is 5th. Some people in this thread are suggesting that this character could prepare 9th level cleric spells even though they are only an 11th level cleric and if they find copies of 9th level wizard spells they could also prepare those even though only 9th level in wizard. Using that logic that also means that a 19th level wizard who takes a single level in cleric gets instant access to the entire cleric spell list - as a first level cleric
 

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From the ranger rules:

"The Spells Known column of the Ranger table shows when you learn more ranger spells of your choice. Each of those spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 5th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level."

This is essentially the same wording as for spell preparation. If all your multiclass spell slots counted, then a ranger 4/wizard 3 would be able to learn 2nd-level ranger spells. But the example given specifically states that a ranger 4/wizard 3 only has 1st-level ranger spells and does not know any 2nd-level ones.

The example makes it very clear how this is supposed to work. For each of your classes, you determine what spells you know and can prepare as a single-classed caster of that class. That means you base it on the spell slots of a single-classed caster of that class and level, not your combined multi-class slots. This was confirmed by Jeremy Crawford in Sage Advice. A wizard 2/cleric 18 cannot learn fireball, even by finding it on a scroll during an adventure, because a wizard 2 can't cast 3rd-level spells.

Given the Sage Advice ruling, I'd second CapnZapp's request for an update to the second post in the thread. No need to confuse the newbies.
 
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You are correct. What you are missing is that the rules for preparing spells as a cleric (as quoted above) specifically tell you that you can prepare any spell for which you have spell slots, and the rules for multiclassing do not distinguish between classes for the purpose of determining your spell slots -- you don't have 'wizard spell slots' and 'cleric spell slots', you have spell slots.

So as a Wizard19/Cleric1, you prepare spells as a 1st level cleric who also happens to have 9th level spell slots. You are limited in the number of spells you can prepare (since that's based on your cleric level, as noted in the multiclassing rules), but not in the level of spell you can prepare (because you have the spell slots of a 20th level caster, not those of a 1st level cleric).

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Pauper

The three rules we have are:

1) "determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
2) "You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
3) "The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher"

Code:
Level   Proficiency   Bonus Features                  Cantrips   Known   —Spell Slots per Spell Level—   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st          +2       Spellcasting, Divine Domain         3                                               2 — — — — — — — —

First level spell casters only have first level spells because of the table here.

You prepare spells as if you were a first level caster. Single class first level casters do not get to use the multiclass spell slots to prepare spells, they get to use the table. After they determine their prepared spells, then then get to use the multiclassing table to determine their overall spell slots, but they have to first use rule #1 above to prepare spells as a single classed member of the class.


Sorry, but all funny semantics aside, the rules do not support your POV. You are dropping rule #3 above to get to your interpretation.
 

The rules are pretty clear, I agree, but you're the one who seems to be ignoring them. In order to support the argument that a Wizard19/Cleric1 can only prepare 1st level cleric spells, you need to argue that the phrase in the multiclassing rules that says that you prepare spells as a single-classed spellcaster also says you determine what spell slots you possess as a single-classed spellcaster. The problem is that the multiclassing rules don't say that -- there's an entire paragraph on how you determine what caster level you are for determining your character's spell slots, and it makes no distinction between your classes -- the rules even explicitly state that you can cast spells from any of your Spellcasting classes with the slots you gain from the Multiclassing Spell Slot chart.
Strawman.

Nobody is talking about spell slots.

There is absolutely no need to argue the multiclassing rules "also says you determine what spell slots you possess as a single-classed spellcaster".

Why? Because we are not discussing spell slots.

Actually, someone can, since I play a cleric/wizard in Adventurer's League, and to this point, that's how the interaction has been ruled in Organized Play.
Not only is this claim unverifiable, it is also irrelevant. Since when do anonymous DMs in the AL have rules interpretation authority?

No, you could play with ten different DMs and get ten different rulings. And that's a good thing - but also makes them a completely inappropriate source to discuss RAW.

I'd suggest you try a Wizard19/Cleric1 compared with other multiclasses to see how 'broken' it is before just spouting off:
I suggest you focus on the matter at hand.

Whether a given build is broken or not is completely beside the issue.

First we arrive at the RAW. Then, we can discuss potential builds based on the rules.

Let me just indulge one minor point:
- If your interpretation of the rule is correct, then a Wizard10/Cleric10 is one of the worst multi-class options you can take
Any spellcasting build that does not give you access to ninth level slots is almost by definition a "lesser" build, in that it makes you a lesser spellcaster. Whether you're compensated adequately in other abilities is not for me to say (and again, is not the subject of this thread). But since the Wiz10/Clr10 is not even close to being a ninth spell level caster; yes, it's fairly obvious that this option is inferior. Barring nigh-impossible multiclass requirements, a Barbarian1/Bard1/Cleric 1/Druid 1/Fighter 1/Monk 1/Paladin 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 1/Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1/Wizard 1 will be close to the weakest possible level 12 character.

As it should be. D&D is a game rewarding focus in almost every aspect, and this character rightly misses out on nearly every feature that makes up the classes.

But thank you for bringing up the Wiz10/Clr10 example.

Wouldn't you say that your interpretation is the preposterous one? If I understand you correctly, you're arguing that a single level of a spellcasting class gives access to all spells of that class, provided you have enough levels of another spellcasting class to actually cast them?

Then why on earth would anyone play a straight single-classed level 20 caster in a game using the MC rules option?

But you don't have to tell me, because this discussion doesn't benefit from emotional sidetracks.

What I would like for you to do, however, is to reply to those who have pointed out that the Cleric rules apply to the single-classed game, and give your reading on the multiclass rules (and not simply persist in your reading of the Cleric rules). Thank you.
 

No. The rules for preparing spells as a multi-classed spellcaster state that you "determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

This is very clear already. But it would have been even clearer if they had added "...of the same level as you have in that class (not total level)".

You are correct. What you are missing is that the rules for preparing spells as a cleric (as quoted above) specifically tell you that you can prepare any spell for which you have spell slots, and the rules for multiclassing do not distinguish between classes for the purpose of determining your spell slots -- you don't have 'wizard spell slots' and 'cleric spell slots', you have spell slots.

"As if you were a single-class member of that class" clearly means that you cannot count higher-level slots, because as a single-class Cleric 1st you do not have slots higher than 1st level.

You could try to twist the reasoning by arguing that they meant "as if you were... of your total level", but the Ranger/Wizard example provided proves that this is not what they meant.
 

You could try to twist the reasoning by arguing that they meant "as if you were... of your total level", but the Ranger/Wizard example provided proves that this is not what they meant.
I think the ranger/wizard example illuminates the RAI. But I also think it contradicts the RAW, which are poorly written and do imply that a cleric 1 who has 9th-level spell slots can prepare 9th-level spells. I'm certainly not advocating sticking to the RAW even in the face of a clear conflict with the RAI and common sense. But it's important to acknowledge when there really is a problem with the RAW, rather than trying to read the RAI and common sense into them when they aren't there. Because that's a bad habit to get into -- in this case there's clear consensus about what the RAI and common sense say, plus a very helpful example, but what about the next case?
 

Nobody is talking about spell slots.

Wrong -- everybody is talking about spell slots. The entire point of the 'as a single classed caster' argument is that the clause supposedly directs you to refer to the class chart to see what spell slots a caster of that level would have, which then limits the level of spell that class can prepare. The thing is, 'as a single-classed caster' isn't the same as 'use your class level to determine your spell slots for the purpose of preparing spells'. This is even more true when you realize that class level is the limiting factor in determining how many spells you can prepare, and the rule about using your single-class level to determine what spells a character can "know and prepare" can be interpreted as referring only to that requirement, not to how to determine what spell slots a multi-class caster has available (which as noted has its own multi-paragraph entry in the multi-classing rules).

Not only is this claim unverifiable, it is also irrelevant. Since when do anonymous DMs in the AL have rules interpretation authority?

Since it's listed in the Adventurers League Player's Guide: "A DM's ruling at the table is considered final for the purpose of that play session." An Adventurers League DM can even overrule Jeremy Crawford; campaign administrators have repeatedly said that Sage Advice is not official for Adventurers League (though it can be used if the DM chooses to).

No, you could play with ten different DMs and get ten different rulings. And that's a good thing - but also makes them a completely inappropriate source to discuss RAW.

At the risk of taking this thread entirely off-topic, there is no RAW -- every rule is interpreted. Some rules are easily interpreted and nearly everyone comes to the same interpretation, others are vague and subject to different interpretations, but all rules are interpreted. RAW does not exist.

I suggest you focus on the matter at hand.

Sure.

To begin with, the example under multiclassing doesn't mean what people seem to think it means. A lot of people are focusing on the phrase "know and prepare"; the reality is that no spellcaster (with the possible exception of the wizard, but see below) both 'knows' and 'prepares' spells.

The example Ranger4/Wizard3 correctly knows 3 1st level ranger spells, because the rules for the ranger specify that it's your ranger level that determines what spells you know based on the Ranger level chart. The example doesn't note what spells the Ranger prepares, though, because classes with a 'spells known' list don't have a prepared spell list -- their list of spells known is their list of spells prepared. Likewise the Wizard example correctly notes that the Wizard may have two 2nd level spells in his spellbook for free, since the rules for gaining free spells when you go up a level in Wizard specifically note that you gain free spells for which you have spell slots "as shown on the Wizard table". These are explicit call-outs in the rules for the individual spellcasting classes, and apply whether a character is single-classed or multi-classed.

Here's the wrinkle -- the example doesn't explain that the Ranger/Wizard could prepare a 3rd level wizard spell if he happened to have one in his book. That's because this is a corner-case that won't always apply, and it's not worth pointing out every corner-case in a generic example. But it is possible: the rules for spellbooks say that a Wizard can copy "a wizard spell of 1st level or higher" into his spellbook "if it is of a spell level you can prepare". The rules for preparing wizard spells say that a wizard can prepare a spell "from your spellbook" of "a level for which you have spell slots." That's it; unlike the rules for adding free spells to your spellbook, the rules for preparing spells do not specify that you use the Wizard class chart to determine your spell slots. The requirement that the spell be in the spellbook clearly doesn't apply when considering whether or not the Wizard can put a new spell into his spellbook; if it did, then the entire "Copying a Spell into the Book" section of the "Your Spellbook" sidebar would be meaningless. So the only restriction on adding spells to the spellbook is if the character has the appropriate level of spell slot. A Ranger4/Wizard3 casts as a 5th level caster (3 levels of Wizard, plus half his 4 levels of Ranger), and thus has a 3rd level spell slot. If this example Wizard can find a scroll or other spellbook with a 3rd level wizard spell, he can copy it into his spellbook, since he has 3rd level spell slots. Once the spell is in his spellbook, he can prepare it.

Once you have that, it's an easy step to saying that a Wizard19/Cleric1, who has 9th level spell slots, can prepare 9th level cleric spells (as well as 9th level wizard spells in his spellbook). A Cleric19/Wizard1 could prepare 9th level wizard spells, if he managed to get any in his book.

The other key point here is that the requirement that characters determine their spells prepared or spells known as if they were single-classed casters does not mean you ignore the rules for how to determine how a multi-classed caster determines his spell slots; that would be like saying that the rules for preparing spells as a Wizard use the same text as the rules for gaining free spells when you go up a level. But they don't; that's an oversimplification of the rules in the book.

Wouldn't you say that your interpretation is the preposterous one? If I understand you correctly, you're arguing that a single level of a spellcasting class gives access to all spells of that class, provided you have enough levels of another spellcasting class to actually cast them?

Of course not -- not every spellcasting class has access to all the spells on their spell list. Bards and rangers have a 'spells known' list that is necessarily limited and has to be based on their class level to make sense. Warlocks have an entirely different method for determining their spell slots, both as a single-class and as a multi-class caster. Paladins have access to their full spell list, but since they are a 'half-level' caster class, a Cleric1/Paladin19 would not have access to 9th level cleric spells, since such a caster doesn't have 9th level spell slots. There are really only a few class combinations that allow 9th level spell access for both classes, and in some cases, like the Wizard, there are additional restrictions that make some combinations (such as Cleric19/Wizard1) much more reliant on player initiative to get access to the appropriate spells. By no means is this a ruling that says 'everyone gets 9th level spells!'

Of course, if you want to claim that to try to defeat my argument even though I'm not saying that, because no better argument seems to be available to you, go ahead. I trust that intelligent players and DMs will see the distinction between the two arguments and choose appropriately.

--
Pauper
 

There are really only a few class combinations that allow 9th level spell access for both classes, and in some cases, like the Wizard, there are additional restrictions that make some combinations (such as Cleric19/Wizard1) much more reliant on player initiative to get access to the appropriate spells. By no means is this a ruling that says 'everyone gets 9th level spells!'

Of course, if you want to claim that to try to defeat my argument even though I'm not saying that, because no better argument seems to be available to you, go ahead. I trust that intelligent players and DMs will see the distinction between the two arguments and choose appropriately.

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Pauper

My main problem with this is it becomes such a great choice. What 17th level plus wizard wouldn't take a level in cleric to get access to all those spells. Its better than anything they get from their own class. Do you think that the designers intentionally hid that option within the multiclass rules that allows wizard/clerics (and cleric/wizards) to be better off than other caster combos like cleric/sorcerer?

You also say its more difficult for a cleric/wizard to get access to the high level spells? Maybe if they only decide to do it at the last levels and there is no other wizard in the party. But if there is another wizard or the player simply keeps scrolls they find through play I don't think there would be much problem getting a bunch of decent spells, even if not as easy as accessing cleric spells

And the fact that Jeremy Crawford specifically states it doesn't work for the wizard at least shows intention, along with the existing wizard/ranger example.
 

My main problem with this is it becomes such a great choice. What 17th level plus wizard wouldn't take a level in cleric to get access to all those spells. Its better than anything they get from their own class.

I disagree -- you get access to anywhere from 3 to 6 (depending on your Wisdom modifier) additional spells. You give up Signature Spell, which is two free 3rd level wizard spells that don't count against your prepared spells, plus the extra prepared spell you'd get for going up a level in wizard. An Evocation Wizard, for example, might well value getting fireball and lightning bolt for free once per day, and being able to use Sculpt Spells, Empowered Evocation, and Overchannel on those spells, then he'd value a relative handful of 9th level cleric spells, which he wouldn't get any bonuses while casting. A Cleric19/Wizard1 is giving up auto-success on Divine Intervention to maybe be able to cast a handful of high level wizard spells, if he can find them or has another wizard in the party who will let him copy a spellbook.


And the fact that Jeremy Crawford specifically states it doesn't work for the wizard at least shows intention, along with the existing wizard/ranger example.

And of course that doesn't really mean anything, since Jeremy Crawford also said that the rules as written don't reign in D&D -- DMs do.

--
Pauper
 

The example Ranger4/Wizard3 correctly knows 3 1st level ranger spells, because the rules for the ranger specify that it's your ranger level that determines what spells you know based on the Ranger level chart.
No. The rules for the ranger state that "those spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." They go on to give, as an example, that a 5th-level ranger would get 1st- and 2nd-level spells, but there is nothing in the ranger rules saying that your spell slots have to come from the ranger class.

So why is it that the example of a ranger 4/wizard 3 is limited to 1st-level ranger spells, even though the character has 2nd-level spell slots? The only possible explanation is that you are meant to completely ignore the other classes when determining what spells you can know and prepare, and that this includes the spell slots granted by those other classes.

Both spells known and spells prepared rely on your spell slots to determine what level spells are available. If the classes that "know" spells are limited, then classes that prepare spells are limited the same way.
 

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