Spells that could be improved / better designed

[MonkeezOnFire]

I was going to suggest that defensive spells that can only target you should have concentration removed. This would bring blur, blink and stoneskin more in line with spells like mage armor, mirror image and flame shield. But then I realized that if concentration were dropped from each of these then they could all be stacked at the same time to turn the wizard into some sort of super survivor. I personally don't like spending concentration on self defensive buffs as they feel like they don't affect the combat as much as other spells but without hacking together some alternative to the concentration mechanic to deal with them it seems like it might be necessary. Unless someone can think of an elegant solution.

 

[Gadget]

Afflict is a flavorful word which means affect. The very next sentence discusses how that affliction manifests (the saving throws).

Are there any other spells that talk about repeating saves before they talk about the result of the effect? None of that I know of.

Afflict - (of a problem or illness) cause pain or suffering to; affect or trouble.

"On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below." That seems pretty clear. By your own definition the spell then affects that target. Hand waving this away as "flavorful" seems disingenuous at best. If the devs are going to trumpet 'plain English' as opposed to the more jargon laden previous edition, then they should be accountable for using it properly.

The next sentence merely tells us that the target must make a saving throw at the end of each of its turns. The sentence after that is the one you claim makes the meaning "crystal clear". "After failing three of these saving throws, the disease’s effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves." Why wouldn't the effects last the duration? The effects of the disease (which are ongoing) now last the duration (7 days) is the more straightforward interpretation, IMHO.

Of course, there is the next sentence: "After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature recovers from the disease, and the spell ends." I'm not sure how one is recovering from a disease one never suffered the effects of, but I'm sure this is just a 'flavorful' word, safely ignored, nothing to see here.

 

[Kryx]

At the end of the day. No one cares what you or I think is RAW. RAI has been clarified. If you don't like it then use it however you want.

There are far more interesting topics than contagion.

 

[Gadget]

Yes, thus the intent of this thread. Thank you for putting up with my no doubt pedantic arguments on the subject, but I have probably derailed the thread too much doing so.

How about Horrid Wilting, many seem to think it does not have enough 'juice' for an eighth level spell. I haven't seen it in play, but my objection to the spell is that I would like it to have some other effect than just straight up damage. Leave that to evocation. I really like how the necromancy cantrip has a rider that prevents the target from regaining hit points for a round. Something like that would nicely evocative and flavorful, plus give the spell the little extra kick people think it needs. I've heard adding an exhaustion level on a failed save. Any thoughts?

 

[Kryx]

I know of no spell by the name "Horrid Wilting" - I don't see it in the PHB or EE. Perhaps I've missed it?

 

[CapnZapp]

I was going to suggest that defensive spells that can only target you should have concentration removed. This would bring blur, blink and stoneskin more in line with spells like mage armor, mirror image and flame shield. But then I realized that if concentration were dropped from each of these then they could all be stacked at the same time to turn the wizard into some sort of super survivor. I personally don't like spending concentration on self defensive buffs as they feel like they don't affect the combat as much as other spells but without hacking together some alternative to the concentration mechanic to deal with them it seems like it might be necessary. Unless someone can think of an elegant solution.

Concentration serves two very different purposes at the same time.

You've discovered the first: the way it prevents stacking. This is good for the game (and this opinion is borne from experience from d20/3e where the buffing precombat ritual destroyed the game)

The second is to add a measure of vulnerability to casters: the way you risk losing a concentration spell if you suffer damage.

The problem is that some (not all, but a few) defensive spells really need the first part (to prevent stacking) but aren't useful because of the second.

For instance, a spell that halves damage taken (Stoneskin) is a spell that's explicitly about entering combat. And yet, as soon as you take the damage the spell was designed to help you endure, you must start rolling Concentration checks.

That's just messed up - you're so much better served by instead picking a spell that removes you from the situation. If you can't rely on your self-defensive buff to do its job as advertised, its value and utility just plummets.

 

[CapnZapp]

I know of no spell by the name "Horrid Wilting" - I don't see it in the PHB or EE. Perhaps I've missed it?

Abi-Dhalzim's Horrid Wilting, page 15 of the Elemental Evil Player's Companion pdf.

 

[Kryx]

Abi-Dhalzim's Horrid Wilting, page 15 of the Elemental Evil Player's Companion pdf.

Ah, there it is!

Yes, by my Spell Balance calculations Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is a horrible spell and needs to deal 14d8, not 7d8, to be competitive with the level it is at.

 

[CapnZapp]

Ah, there it is!

Yes, by my Spell Balance calculations Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is a horrible spell and needs to deal 14d8, not 7d8, to be competitive with the level it is at.

It's 10d8, but still, point well made.

I happen to think that it could do even more damage, or at least do untyped damage that can't be resisted, and still not be unduly balanced.

Of course, to reclaim some of its former glory (Horrid Wilting was a fearsome spell in 3E), it should do both: A creature takes 15d8 untyped and unresistable damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Now we're talking! Remember, damage can never unhinge a campaign in the way a save or suck spell can. And since you only ever have a single level 8 spell slot, this is nothing to worry about.

 

[Kryx]

It's 10d8, but still, point well made.

Fail. Thanks for overlooking my note taking incompetence!

I happen to think that it could do even more damage, or at least do untyped damage that can't be resisted, and still not be unduly balanced.

Agreed it could probably do more and be fine. I chose 14d8 as it was in line with the other 8th level spells, but that sample size is incredibly small so it's hard to gauge how accurate it is. Though the average for 7th level spells as 8th level spells is 90 so an average of 115 is good based on the other jumps.

Looking at it again 15d8 is a bit better after I fixed Incendiary Cloud's calculation.