Spells that could be improved / better designed

[Dualazi]

Concentration serves two very different purposes at the same time.

You've discovered the first: the way it prevents stacking. This is good for the game (and this opinion is borne from experience from d20/3e where the buffing precombat ritual destroyed the game)

The second is to add a measure of vulnerability to casters: the way you risk losing a concentration spell if you suffer damage.

The problem is that some (not all, but a few) defensive spells really need the first part (to prevent stacking) but aren't useful because of the second.

For instance, a spell that halves damage taken (Stoneskin) is a spell that's explicitly about entering combat. And yet, as soon as you take the damage the spell was designed to help you endure, you must start rolling Concentration checks.

That's just messed up - you're so much better served by instead picking a spell that removes you from the situation. If you can't rely on your self-defensive buff to do its job as advertised, its value and utility just plummets.

That still doesn't really make it a problem. IIRC Concentration checks are either 10 or half the damage dealt, whichever is higher. With stoneskin up, you would need to take a hit of 44 pre-mitigation to have a DC 11 concentration check. The number of enemies who can reliably hit you for that outside of big ticket spells or abilities (like a dragon's breath) are very rare. Additionally, in a game that allows feats I can't imagine a caster that doesn't take Warcaster for advantage on concentration saves, so it's further mitigated.

 

[CapnZapp]

That still doesn't really make it a problem. IIRC Concentration checks are either 10 or half the damage dealt, whichever is higher. With stoneskin up, you would need to take a hit of 44 pre-mitigation to have a DC 11 concentration check. The number of enemies who can reliably hit you for that outside of big ticket spells or abilities (like a dragon's breath) are very rare. Additionally, in a game that allows feats I can't imagine a caster that doesn't take Warcaster for advantage on concentration saves, so it's further mitigated.

I know that. But still, having to make multiple checks each round is unacceptable even if you only fail on a 1.

For the purpose of Stoneskin to work, you need to expose yourself to attacks. Having the spell suddenly disappear because of a bad roll really crimps its style, if you see what I mean.

And I'm not talking exclusively about Stoneskin. Any spell that is a self-buff cast when about to do combat is seriously compromised by having Concentration.

So I'm saying that there exists a (small) selection of spells which really could benefit from having only the anti-stacking part of concentration.

 

[Jester David]

Lesser Restoration - Next level you will literally be able to bring someone back from being (mostly) dead with revivify, but this one can't remove a single exhaustion level? Whats that you say, barbarians would be all over this as a way to remove one of the drawbacks of raging? Eh, says I, you're spending a 2nd level spell slot to do it. Besides, it lets environmental hazards come into play more if you so desire, so game on!

I agree with most of the rest, except this.
If you can just remove environmental effects and hazards with a single second level spell they cease to have any impact after level five or six.

 

[CM]

Here's my update to Mordenkainen's Sword. It incorporates some of its utility from previous editions.

MORDENKAINEN’S SWORD (REWRITE)
7th-level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a miniature platinum sword with a grip and pommel of copper and zinc, worth 250gp)
Duration: 1 minute

You create a sword-shaped plane of force that hovers within range. It lasts for the duration. When the sword first appears, you make a melee spell attack against a target of your choice within range. The sword always attacks with advantage. On a hit, the target takes 5d10 force damage. Until the spell ends, you can use a bonus action on each of your subsequent turns to make another attack with the sword.

The sword can attack invisible and ethereal creatures without penalty if you have pinpointed their location. If the sword attacks a creature protected by a shield spell, the shield is destroyed and the sword ignores it. After attacking, the sword remains in the position it attacked from or returns to hover at your side, at your choice.

 

[Gadget]

Some good points about Stoneskin. It is not quite the uber buff it was in previous editions. I think the point of the spell now is that you put it on the Fighter with the magic armor and high AC and send him into the blender. Viewed from that angle, it is a pretty good buff, though I agree it is no longer the self buff it once was.

As for Horrid Wilting, I trust you guys have worked out the damage particulars. My point was that I don't mind Evocation spells being a little ahead (but not that much) on damage (that's their thing after all), but I would like it if this spell had a flavorful rider to go along with it. Like targets who fail their save can't recover hit points until they take a short/long rest (or receive a Greater Restoration, remove curse, etc.). The problem is that these riders are more inherently difficult to balance than straight up damage.

A few more at the apex of the spell casting list to consider:

Weird - For a ninth level spell, it is basically mass phantasmal killer, with the same problems phantasmal killer has; namely requiring two different saves before any of the not great ongoing damage kicks in. Not impressed.

Timestop - This used to be quite the spell, iirc. Now they have so locked it down that it is mainly a get-out-of-dodge, or quick time out to quaff a few healing potions and buff up a little spell. Most other uses are very contrived or very niche. You can still do the old stand by of firing off a Delayed Blast Fireball and buffing/healing while under the effect of this spell, but the random number of rounds you get outside of time makes this less useful. Either make it so you can bring along four or five buddies outside of time with you (so the whole party can heal/buff up), or make it a reaction to cast and give the caster a full five rounds outside of time. This makes the defensive aspects of the spell more pronounced, making it an oh-no-you-didn't type of ability, while keeping the offensive abuses in check.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Kryx]

Weird and PK just need a slight damage boost and to have the damage go off on the first save as well.

Timestop is rated blue by treantmonk. It doesn't need any buffs.

 

[RotGrub]

There certainly are some spells that are grossly under-powered in 5e for their level. Stoneskin is one that comes to mind. IMO, it doesn't qualify as a 4th level spell anymore.

 

[Kryx]

Spells that grant resistance:

Absorb Elements (1st): Reaction for resistance to an energy type for 1 round.
Blade Ward (Cantrip): 1 action for resistance against bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from weapons for 1 round. Awful cantrip
Primordial Ward (6th): 1 action to gain resistance to all energy types for Concentration, up to 1 minute.
Protection from Energy (3rd): 1 action to gain resistance to an energy type for Concentration, up to 1 hour
Protection from Poison (2nd): 1 action to neutralize a poison, grant advantage on saving throws against poison, and resistance to poison for 1 hour
Stoneskin (4th): 1 action to gain resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage for Concentration, up to 1 hour


bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing resistance is amazing and magic weapons are incredibly rare for monsters to have so I'm not seeing how it's a bad choice when compared to the other resistance spells.

3rd level feels like a stretch.

 

[RotGrub]

Spells that grant resistance:

Absorb Elements (1st): Reaction for resistance to an energy type for 1 round.
Blade Ward (Cantrip): 1 action for resistance against bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from weapons for 1 round. Awful cantrip
Primordial Ward (6th): 1 action to gain resistance to all energy types for Concentration, up to 1 minute.
Protection from Energy (3rd): 1 action to gain resistance to an energy type for Concentration, up to 1 hour
Protection from Poison (2nd): 1 action to neutralize a poison, grant advantage on saving throws against poison, and resistance to poison for 1 hour
Stoneskin (4th): 1 action to gain resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage for Concentration, up to 1 hour


bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing resistance is amazing and magic weapons are incredibly rare for monsters to have so I'm not seeing how it's a bad choice when compared to the other resistance spells.

3rd level feels like a stretch.

I'd rather stoneskin work as it did in previous editions. It's also a thematic issue for me. I've even recall reading D&D novels in which stoneskin granted immunity for a number of hits.

 

[RotGrub]

Fireball, as a 3rd level spell, does more damage than Ice Storm (4th) and Storm Sphere (4th) (fair as those do some light CC).
When cast as a 4th level spell it does the same damage in 1 turn as a Vitriolic Sphere (4th) does in 2 turns. It does about the same as Wall of Fire (4th).
When cast as a 5th level spell it does slightly less than the average 5th level spell (52 vs 55.5).

What you're asking for is all damage spells to do more damage than they do. Or perhaps scale more than they do. If they scaled at a rate higher than an additional dice every 3rd level or so then lower level spells cast at higher level would be better than higher level spells.

You're comparing a damage spell to a utility spell - they are very different.

Beyond that as I mentioned above casters already have huge versatility from their utility spells and do great burst damage. The quadratic caster vs linear fighter is not as big of an issue in 5e, but it is still there.

I really don't think I'd like 5e if the level of the spell didn't dictate how much damage it did. Ice Storm is cold damage which has always done less damage anyway.