D&D 5E Spells: the Good, the Bad, and the Downright Orcish Grandmother

[CapnZapp]

[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]

Sorry buddy, but I have to disagree.

That's quite okay.

Since you openly admit you don't play by the rules as DM I don't have to give your notion a lot of weight.

(nothing wrong by winging it as a DM. Its just that my argument had as a fundamental assumption the NPCs had to abide by the same spell rules as the PCs. Which I guess is a long-winded way of saying I think you could have avoided drama by cutting out the disagreement and instead saying something along the lines of "the way I DM makes Zapp's argument irrelevant to me")



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[Hawk Diesel]

Not trying to cause drama by disagreeing. Just stating that I see things differently. Not implying that any way is superior. D&D supports many ways to approach the game, and all are equal so long as everyone playing having fun. If you choose to play by staying within the same rules as the players then good for you. For me, that creates a couple of problems:

1) Strict adherence to the rules and staying with what's presented in official material creates a lot to track. If I am running a spellcaster and multiple minions, also having to keep track of spells and specific spell descriptions is difficult and can slow the game down.

2) I see the DM role more as a storyteller and adjudicator, rather than a simulationist for mechanics.

3) It can create a situation for me where I become invested in my creations if I create them along the same guidelines as the players create their characters. I am more likely to take on an adversarial role as DM versus players or build versus build because the more time I take to mechanically build an enemy, the more I become invested in their survival or winning. For me, I see this as counterproductive to a cooperative storytelling RPG.

So if your play style is more driven to stay within the rules as a DM, that's fine and I see how PWK has more merit as is. However, even from the perspective that the DM has the same tools as the players, the tools presented in the PHB should still inherently be focused on being for the players. If they are more geared for the DM, then the DM has the DMG or the MM, both of which would be more appropriate for such a spell. Why give players access to a spell if its not meant for them, or benefits the DM more?

 

[Guest 6801328]

In general when somebody criticizes the rules or has a suggestion for improvement, the response "so you're the DM just change it" doesn't contribute very much. Yeah, sure, you can change anything. In fact you can rebuild it from the ground up. Or you can play a different version. Or another game entirely.

And yet we are talking about D&D. Which has rules. Discussing the pros and cons of the rules is what we gamers do.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

In general when somebody criticizes the rules or has a suggestion for improvement, the response "so you're the DM just change it" doesn't contribute very much. Yeah, sure, you can change anything. In fact you can rebuild it from the ground up. Or you can play a different version. Or another game entirely.

And yet we are talking about D&D. Which has rules. Discussing the pros and cons of the rules is what we gamers do.

Not sure if this is directed at me, but you are correct, we are talking about D&D which has rules, and waving around rule 0 doesn't trump that. But also, I don't buy that spells or any material presented in the PHB should be balanced primarily with the DM in mind. If a spell doesn't make sense for a player to use (i.e. a spell that requires you to know the exact hit points of a target or it fails, something no player should know), then why is it put in a place for players? What use does it have for players? Put it in the Lich abilities in the MM. Put it next the the Death Cleric in the DMG. A DM's access to an ability or spell should not be a factor in balance.

Since PWK is in the PHB, I assume it has use for players, and should be on par with other 9th level spells. I also assume it should be more than either an instant kill or wasted spell slot with no save, with the player having to guess which because they don't have access to information about target hit points (like the DM does, since he/she knows what the players have and the NPCs). Either the target dies anticlimactically, or the player is frustrated because they spent a 9th level spell slot.

My proposed adjustment works to address those issues. It doesn't take into account DM access to the spell, nor should it in my opinion. Whether a DM can use a spell or ability is irrelevant because regardless of playstyle, the only ones in the game that are forced to play by the rules are the players. And so the players should have abilities within the rules that are fairly balanced, fun, and interesting.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Not sure if this is directed at me

I was backing you up.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I was backing you up.

Ah, cool, I was a bit confused, lol. ^_^

 

[CapnZapp]

You are certainly allowed to have the opinion "every spell should earn it's place in the players' handbook, especially the level 9 ones".

And I would agree: yes, it would have been unconditionally better if all PHB spells were okay or better with no "red" clunkers.

But this is a thread about ogrish grandmothers.

And it is in that context I'm suggesting that a spell can have some value even if none of that value reaches player characters.

(if a spell isn't entirely without value, then it really doesn't qualify to be full "ogrish")

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[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] That's fine. But this thread, as far as I can tell, is about more than just identifying clunkers and junkers of spells and complaining about them or arguing their merit. It's also been about making proposals as to how one might fix them.

Also, maybe you don't think PWK is bad or "Orcish Grandmother." I do. For a player the spell sucks. For something as awesomely named as Power Word Kill it is underwhelming and frustrating to use. This is the Avada Kedavra of 5e. And for it to possibly do nothing if the target happens to have one too many HP is absurd to me.

 

[Iry]

Perhaps I haven't offered my analysis of PWK in this particular thread, but spells aren't just for adventurers - they're there for monsters and NPCs too.

Correct, Power Word Kill is not impressive for a hero, since you only get it at 17th level. A hundred hit points simply isn't much there. At 17th level, monsters will routinely be CR 20. Everyone has LOADS of hit points, even the mooks! Instead of spending your only level 9 spell perhaps the party fighter can simply attack the monster and do a hundred damage?

Monsters can have any spell or supernatural effect that you can imagine, based upon the needs of the plot and whatever creative situation you want to challenge your players with. So for the most part, the spell list is for the players and a general template to draw inspiration from.

But I agree that PW:K is quite strong in the hands of the monsters, if you were somehow restricted from creating new things (like AL).

 

[CapnZapp]

[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] That's fine. But this thread, as far as I can tell, is about more than just identifying clunkers and junkers of spells and complaining about them or arguing their merit. It's also been about making proposals as to how one might fix them.

Also, maybe you don't think PWK is bad or "Orcish Grandmother." I do. For a player the spell sucks. For something as awesomely named as Power Word Kill it is underwhelming and frustrating to use. This is the Avada Kedavra of 5e. And for it to possibly do nothing if the target happens to have one too many HP is absurd to me.

Note I never contested the "PWK sucks for player characters" sentiment.

Only the "PWK sucks" sentiment.

Feel very free posting your thoughts on how to make PWK worthwhile for players.

Myself, though, I prefer to focus on spell that a) sucks for everybody, and b) see more play (are lower level).

Even if you have two or three campaigns that reach 17th level you can still do fine without ever picking (and getting disappointed by) PWK. And I haven't even had one! (Our highest 5E campaign reached level 15 or 16)

Cheers

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