D&D 5E Spells: the Good, the Bad, and the Downright Orcish Grandmother

[CapnZapp]

Monsters can have any spell or supernatural effect that you can imagine, based upon the needs of the plot and whatever creative situation you want to challenge your players with. So for the most part, the spell list is for the players and a general template to draw inspiration from.

But I agree that PW:K is quite strong in the hands of the monsters, if you were somehow restricted from creating new things (like AL).

Even for a home campaign, where nobody is looking over your shoulder, you'd be surprised by how many DMs are like me in that they prefer to stick to the rules when that doesn't prevent us from telling the story.

If I had a story that required a CR 5 critter to cast PWK, would I do it? Yes, absolutely.

But barring such needs, I prefer it if the players can observe the world around them following the same fundamental restrictions they themselves are bound by.


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[Iry]

Even for a home campaign, where nobody is looking over your shoulder, you'd be surprised by how many DMs are like me in that they prefer to stick to the rules when that doesn't prevent us from telling the story.

Most of the articles and surveys that I have read on the matter lean the other way. There will always be tables that run strict module-style, either by requirement (AL) or preference. But people seem far more comfortable creating their own monsters (and their supernatural abilities) than ever before. The most common method seems to be familiar monsters with custom abilities, and I think that trend will continue to rise in the coming years.

 

[CapnZapp]

Most of the articles and surveys that I have read on the matter lean the other way. There will always be tables that run strict module-style, either by requirement (AL) or preference. But people seem far more comfortable creating their own monsters (and their supernatural abilities) than ever before. The most common method seems to be familiar monsters with custom abilities, and I think that trend will continue to rise in the coming years.

Are we still talking about arguments against "PWK is a good spell, if not for player characters, then for enemy casters"?

(If not, then my response is just "Sure. Carry on")

 

[Iry]

Are we still talking about arguments against "PWK is a good spell, if not for player characters, then for enemy casters"?

I'm talking about "It's probably not a good idea to balance spells around NPC use." Mostly because NPCs have never been balanced, either because of the vagaries of plot (they set up an ambush), custom creations (this dragon breathes hypnotic gas), or variations in party composition (module creators can't think of everything).

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm talking about "It's probably not a good idea to balance spells around NPC use." Mostly because NPCs have never been balanced, either because of the vagaries of plot (they set up an ambush), custom creations (this dragon breathes hypnotic gas), or variations in party composition (module creators can't think of everything).

Okay. Seems we're back full circle.

I never contested the "PWK is bad for PCs" sentiment.

I do contest the "PWK is bad" sentiment, since it is great for NPCs.

My only aim is to argue: personally I focus on first fixing spells that nobody want to use, not even enemy casters.

More in general, yes, there are a lot of substandard spells in the PHB. But let's not forget that this creates an opportunity for varied gameplay. You can even deliberately equip an enemy caster with substandard spells and then lower its CR. This way you end up with an unproblematic encounter: yes, the spells are meh, but for lower-levelled heroes, they can be dangerous enough!

To repeat: that does not mean I am defending "red" PHB spells. It's more a case of trying to do the best with what we're given.

For the purpose of this thread, I feel we haven't made any progress of the truly ogrish spells, so I personally feel it is premature to work on PWK. Your mileage varies.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I never contested the "PWK is bad for PCs" sentiment.

I do contest the "PWK is bad" sentiment, since it is great for NPCs.

Sorry, are we talking about the NPC's Handbook? The DMG? The MM?

Oh, wait, we're talking about a spell in the Player's Handbook? So you can understand my concern when we determine whether or not a spell is balanced to be used as a player. Monsters in the MM and NPCs do not follow the same guidelines for character creation or powers as players do. Otherwiae, we would never see NPCs with abilities outside of what players can achieve. For example, Cult Fanatics are NPCs presented at the end of the MM, but they get the Dark Devotion ability, something PCs cannot gain. Or the Archmage being resistant to damage from spells, yet having none of the other abilities granted by an Abjurer wizard. NPCs do not follow guidelines for creation that are required for the players. Therefore, whether or not a spell works for NPCs has little value in a discussion for how well spells function as intended in the hands of players.

My only aim is to argue: personally I focus on first fixing spells that nobody want to use, not even enemy casters.

Wonderful. Then how about you present examples of such spells, or perhaps comment on the changes to spells proposed by those who have posted here, rather than declaring whether the opinions of others are faulty based on how spells function for NPCs? Or perhaps help us understand how spells we propose to suck maybe don't completely suck for a player (once again, the target audience for the Player's Handbook).

More in general, yes, there are a lot of substandard spells in the PHB. But let's not forget that this creates an opportunity for varied gameplay. You can even deliberately equip an enemy caster with substandard spells and then lower its CR. This way you end up with an unproblematic encounter: yes, the spells are meh, but for lower-levelled heroes, they can be dangerous enough!

I see this as a topic of a completely different thread. Others can correct me if I am reaching or presuming too greatly, but the previous spells mentioned were mentioned because of how they are poor spells in the hands of players, not because of how they are used in the hands of a DM.

EDIT: Wrote some of that in anger and should have left it off the post. Thought better of it and took it out since it didn't contribute to the conversation in any meaningful way. My apologies for allowing it to get personal.

 

[CapnZapp]

I guess I'm more pragmatic than you, Hawk.

If I can use a spell for an enemy caster, that spell is not as worthless as another spell that I can't even justify NPCs using...

Anyway.

Let's move over to the constructive part, shall we?

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[Hawk Diesel]

I guess I'm more pragmatic than you, Hawk.

If I can use a spell for an enemy caster, that spell is not as worthless as another spell that I can't even justify NPCs using...

Anyway.

Let's move over to the constructive part, shall we?

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Agreed. I think we beat this dead horse enough.

 

[gyor]

If you rolled to hits like I roll to hits, all of these cantrips basically suck. The advantage of Witch Bolt is that if I can manage to hit once (which is why I use it with True Strike), I never have to roll to hit again until that foe is down. So to me, it's an anti-lieutenant or anti-solo spell.

Sure, Chromatic Orb gives the advantages that you mention, but at level 3, foes tend to not have energy resistance. And even if they did, lightning resistance should be fairly rare (shy of blue dragons).



So like I said, do you metagame your NPCs to know the solution for this spell?



2D12 at level two is 13 average automatic points per round once achieved. No to hit roll after round one.

At level two on a hit:

Cloud of Daggers? 10 average total points for a single round unless the team can figure out a way to move a foe into it.

Chromatic Orb? 18 average total points.

Magic Missile? 14 average total points.

Melf's Acid Arrow? 15 average total points (this also does half damage on a miss).

Scorching Ray? 21 average total points.

I'm not seeing these spells that blow away Witch Bolt so drastically. Scorching Ray is the best of the bunch, but even combining it with cantrips will tend to be subpar by round two (i.e. 21 from Scorching Ray on round one followed by 5.5 from Fire Bolt IF it hits on round two is typically the same or less damage than Witch Bolt at 26 by round two).



No, the difference is that the PC can do 65 average points of damage with a single first level spell, 130 average points of damage with as single second level spell if the PCs can figure out a way to lock down a big bad foe. Huge if done properly. And not as bad as you claim.

Sure, the odds of getting 10 rounds of damage out of this spell is not so good, but if the PCs are fighting a solo, the odds of getting 3 or 4 rounds are not so bad, especially if other PCs have spells to lock down a foe (like Entangle). Sure, if the DM metagames the solo to move away, all bets are off.


And Witch Bolt can be even more potent in the hands of a Sorcerer using Distant spell.

A Storm Sorcerer using both distant spell and Empower Spell or a Divine Soul who has Spirit Guardians up, which will help keep the target from getting too far way.

 

[gyor]

Thread Resurrection!

So I've been thinking about some of the problematic spells described in this thread. I have some ideas.

Jump - This is less a problem with the spell, and more a problem with your movement speed being a limiting factor if your jump distance is greater than your movement speed. I think the better way to approach this is to just allow people to exceed their movement speed as a normal move action when their jump distance is greater. Obviously, certain types of character builds could take advantage of this. I think a potential limiting factor that could be implemented is to call for constitution saves to avoid gaining levels of exhaustion if you make too many jumps too quickly. I think this would need to be a DM call on what that looks like, but it would keep people from abusing the jump distance to get consistent movement higher than their base speed.

Ray of Enfeeblement - I don't believe a spell should require an attack roll AND a saving throw. For this spell, I remove the attack roll aspect. The target is automatically affected to start, and makes their constitution save at the end of each turn. This guarantees one round of dealing half damage. I think this is necessary as most frontline fighters that you would target tend to have good Con, and so this way you consistently get at least one round out of the spell. Not sure any other such spells exist like this, so I'm not sure if this makes it too powerful for a second level spell. But since it doesn't have direct offensive capability so much as defensive capability, I think it is an appropriate power level.

Color Spray - I don't mind this spell too much. There's no save, and it has a mechanic similar to sleep (though not as long lasting). My only recommended change is to change the line that states "the effects last until the spell ends" to "the effects last until the start of your next turn."

This one wasn't previously mentioned, but I thought I'd present it here to get others thoughts.

Power Word Kill
9th-level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. It the creature has more than 100 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw. If the creature fails, it is reduced to one quarter of its remaining hit point total (rounded down). If the creature succeeds, it takes 50 points of necrotic damage.

Reasoning: Being able to instantly kill a creature with 100 HP or less is great, don't get me wrong. Especially without a save. But its also kind of a boring spell. And it also makes a player have to guess the opponent's HP, which requires some metagaming. Additionally, A player with over 100 HP has nothing to fear from this spell until he's been worn down a bit. But what if the big bad that they're facing doesn't have minions or anything left to wear the players down for the Coup de Grace? I think this allows a player to use it without having to metagame, and it allows it a measure of respect even from the most dangerous of creatures. This really is Power Word: Kill.

Now, I'm curious with XGtE having been recently released and people having had time to read through those spells, are there any new spells that might be added to this list?

Temple of the Gods, Illusionary Dragon, Dragon's Breath, Shadow Blade, Mighty Fortress, Druid Grove, Improved Find Familiar, Homunulus, Tiny Servant, Absorb Elements, Summon Lesser Demons, Summon Demons, Maddening Darkness, Infernal Incantation, Ceremony, Thunder Step, Pyschic Scream, Mass Polymorph, invulnerible all awesome spells.