D&D 5E Spending time [Encounter pacing and Resting restrictions]
- Thread starter CapnZapp
- Start date
Flamestrike
Legend
This is actually a brilliant start for this discussion.
Not Angry's word hemorrhageor the actual specifics of his proposal, but the very concept of adding a cost to resting directly into the core of the game!
Let's first summarize Angry's post and save you five thousand words. (Disclaimer: Go read the blog if you want a perfect recollection. The exact way you choose to implement this is a detail; what's important is the concept. So I have probably gotten a few things wrong.)
Each time the characters take an action that spends time - searching for traps, examining some object, looting a fallen enemy, you the DM add a die to a pool of dice - the time pool. If the characters do something noisy, stupid or goose-chasey, add a small die (like a d4). If they're clever or efficient about it, add a larger die (like a d12).
You don't actually track time. We're talking "extra" time here. Time that stops up the regular adventure. Time "wasted". Don't add time dice for just venturing through the dungeon or fighting swamp monsters or getting the quest from the Innkeeper. Add time dice for stopping to check minute cracks in the ceiling, harvesting the body parts of swamp monsters or following the Innkeeper because the paranoid Barbarian thinks he's adding poison to their food. And most assuredly, add time dice for when the party takes a short or long rest "just in case".
Whenever you feel like it, you roll all the dice in the time pool. If any come up a "1" you have a complication. Traditionally, a wandering monster. But it could be a cave-in, or that the Lich King suddenly decides to order take-away.
If you take a rest, you add plenty of dice. If you take a longer rest, you add even more.
The point is, you've created a tangible risk factor. You've set a price on time itself.
And barring old-edition versions of Time Stop, the pesky adventurers can't stop you from piling more dice on the time pool. (They can avoid random monsters by Rope Trick, they can avoid inclement weather with Zone of Warmth, and they can avoid malnutrition with Create Food and Water, but nothing can circumvent you from getting a bigger time pool)
Finally, a mechanism that answers the original question "but why don't we simply rest before continuing" without you the DM having to axle the narrative burden of making up some bull story about the world coming to an end Real Soon Now™.
You're acting like this is something new.
I dont know about you, but I've been rolling a dice when the players waste time, and throwing random encounters or something else nasty at them since the 80's.
To me, that's the feature, not the bug.
They're adventurers. Risking death is the entire point. Big risk for big rewards. If at any point a group of PCs can go la-la-la-ing across the landscape for treasure and not feel any risk of failure or death, then I personally think that takes away more dramatic tension than anything having to do with time-related dice pools (going up or down).
The way I look at it... if a group of players are getting their ass handed to them where they feel like they need to rest often just to survive... then they probably shouldn't also spend 30 minutes at a time in every chamber in a dungeon looking for secret doors and looting bodies. They need to be wiser that. They need to know that rather than stopping for these more meaningless tasks ("meaningless" in this instance being in terms of surviving the dungeon, not in terms of what you might get out of it) that their time is better spent hustling through and either completing the task so they can rest without fear, or find a place prior to the end where they can rest with a lessened amount of fear.
But to think as a DM you are inhibiting group's decisions because you are making it explicit that (for example) you let that goblin escape your grasp back into the dungeon, but you still then stop to loot every pile of bodies you come across or search every single corridor for a trap or a secret door, or take a breather for an hour after every fight, to me is kind of silly. You as the DM are not inhibiting their decisions... you're merely pointing out that their decisions probably aren't very smart. They can still take them... they just need to know that they had consequences. Real, tangible consequences. And a dice pool does that. Especially when that dice pool eventually rolls and it comes up with a '1'.
But again... we've been making it a point to say that this particular mechanic is not necessary for all DMs nor for all groups. And for some groups, yes a 'carrot' might be more preferential to a 'stick'. To me personally though that's the last thing I'd want to give them, because it's the antithesis of what is happening. In these cases, a party has to make the best choice for them out of a myriad of potentially bad options-- wasting time doing one thing versus wasting time doing something else. But to reward them for making that choice, seems to me counter-intuitive. Yeah, it might make them feel a little better along the way until the hammer eventually does fall... but I don't see that as adding tension to what they are doing.
Adventuring is inherently dangerous, the risks are always there, and even more importantly to me, the threat of risks should always be there. So any way to keep that threat overhanging the group to remind them that this isn't just some walk in the park to grab a whole bunch of gold and magic items but indeed they are risking their lives to undertake it... is exactly the sort of feeling they always all should have. And it's the measure of an adventurer's strength of character that has them push through that fear to do what needs to be done.
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You're acting like what you've been doing since the 80's is accomplishing what the time-based dice pool mechanic is trying to accomplish. But I'm guessing that it probably isn't.
clearstream
(He, Him)
Me tooWeird I prefer sticks
Here is a second pass on some rules for Threat LevelGaining Threat Dice
Threat dice are d6s. Add to the threat pool one die per short rest, or three dice per long rest.
Using Threat
Whenever the die comes up 1 for a player's attack roll, ability check or saving throw, the DM removes all threat dice from the pool and rolls those dice. Each 1 on a d6 generates 1 threat point, which must be immediately spent on one of the following
- Add one hit dice to a foe’s HP
- Give one foe inspiration; each foe can gain inspiration only once this way
- Add foes to an encounter; converting points 1:1 into CR this way
- Increase the CR of a foe by one; exchanging a weaker foe for a stronger one
- Give one foe a luck point; per the feat
Clearing Threat
Threat clears when players finish a dungeon, conclude an adventure, or reach a sanctuary.
The change is to force the DM to use the dice in response to a circumstance that players always get a sinking feeling about - rolling a natural 1. This might have a good feel in play because obviously the more encounters players engage in between rests, the more likely a natural 1 will come up when there are not many dice in the pool. If players limit the number of encounters between rests, then it is more likely there will be a stack of dice ready to roll instead.
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Shadowdweller00
Hero
There are very good reasons from a DM / dramatic standpoint to encourage the PCs not to rest too often. And there are a million and one ways to implement this. But I find the base solution proposed in the thread (Angry DM thing) to be too gamist, insubtle, and narrative-breaking for my personal tastes. Sure, you can describe and/or reason the complications within the context of the game world...but the core mechanic is a constant break in verisimilitude IMO. By showing the dice pool, you're essentially showing the gearworks to the players.
Better ways IMO to handle time/rest limitations include all or several of the following:
* Vary the time incentive from adventure to adventure within a campaign. Maybe the PCs need to find the antidote for the poisoned princess during one leg of the campaign, maybe they need to kill the evil high priest before a cult finishes a spell in another leg, maybe the goblin chief keeps calling in reinforcements during another leg, perhaps the wizard will pay more for the macguffin if it's delivered within a certain time period in another leg.
* It's good to be clear about what's going on. Straight-out tell the players that you intend to provide incentives to avoid resting too often...but then follow it up with in-game / narrativist events rather than a metagame mechanic.
* After you have told the players what's going on, plan out dynamic changes to the adventuring environment that increase threat, decrease rewards, or provide some sort of undesirable consequence for taking too long. Intelligent foes might react to attacks by...sending out high-challenge hunting parties to counterattack the PCs, building new fortifications, replacing guards, calling in reinforcements (upping the number of creatures and consequently threat of existing encounters), constructing traps, praying to gods/fiends/celestials for assistance, casting preparatory magic (such as hallow or glyph of warding) possibly with loot the PCs might otherwise requisition. As time passes prisoners held by the enemy might be eaten, sacrificed, or otherwise victimized. In locations held by non-intelligent or organized enemies...monsters might move in, merely seeking shelter or to feast upon corpses the PCs have left behind; undead might spontaneously arise due to disturbance; ruins or caverns newly exposed to the elements might become unstable; even lowly scavenging humanoids like a goblin or kobold might track the PCs and wander in hoping to steal loot the PCs might not have taken yet. Everything in an adventuring location might simply become increasingly alerted to new threats...gaining a bonus to perception checks, and an increased tendency to conceal themselves. Even if the PCs have means of resting safely or choose to do so away from the adventuring location, new encounters can be left on site for the PCs to face when they return or leave their sanctuary. Excessive new combat encounters can be a bit boring if you chose to go that route, but it doesn't take long to get the point across.
* Consider occasional environmental challenges that make resting limited, difficult, or hazardous - inclement weather than makes long rests difficult; cold weather, hot weather, or high (low-oxygen) altitudes that impose progressive levels of exhaustion if the PCs take too long. Slow poisons that build up until the PCs either go elsewhere for a cure or leave the area to recuperate.
* Consider worldwide dynamics - Allies or property might suffer attacks or difficulties while the PCs are off spending 5-minute workdays while adventuring. Even something as simple as horses/servants being attacked outside a dungeon might occur.
* Provide information through standard in-game channels that the adventuring environment has changed so as to reinforce the idea of consequences. Captured enemies might tell tales of reinforcements being brought in. New traps might appear where previously there were none...areas may show signs of recent construction. Maybe in one room the PCs find fresh goblin footprints near an empty leather bag with a few remaining stray coins. The PCs might find raw materials, schematics, or even expended spell components that alert them to new potential threats. Cleared areas might show obvious signs of disturbance.
* If the PCs find ways to bypass some of these challenges, it's not a problem. If the PCs have some spell that allows them to rest safely - they are expending resources by learning and/or keeping the spell prepared. Most "resting-sanctuary" spells won't stop the dungeon environment from changing while the PCs rest. If the PCs find some solution to a particular aspect of a time incentive...they are still being challenged.
Better ways IMO to handle time/rest limitations include all or several of the following:
* Vary the time incentive from adventure to adventure within a campaign. Maybe the PCs need to find the antidote for the poisoned princess during one leg of the campaign, maybe they need to kill the evil high priest before a cult finishes a spell in another leg, maybe the goblin chief keeps calling in reinforcements during another leg, perhaps the wizard will pay more for the macguffin if it's delivered within a certain time period in another leg.
* It's good to be clear about what's going on. Straight-out tell the players that you intend to provide incentives to avoid resting too often...but then follow it up with in-game / narrativist events rather than a metagame mechanic.
* After you have told the players what's going on, plan out dynamic changes to the adventuring environment that increase threat, decrease rewards, or provide some sort of undesirable consequence for taking too long. Intelligent foes might react to attacks by...sending out high-challenge hunting parties to counterattack the PCs, building new fortifications, replacing guards, calling in reinforcements (upping the number of creatures and consequently threat of existing encounters), constructing traps, praying to gods/fiends/celestials for assistance, casting preparatory magic (such as hallow or glyph of warding) possibly with loot the PCs might otherwise requisition. As time passes prisoners held by the enemy might be eaten, sacrificed, or otherwise victimized. In locations held by non-intelligent or organized enemies...monsters might move in, merely seeking shelter or to feast upon corpses the PCs have left behind; undead might spontaneously arise due to disturbance; ruins or caverns newly exposed to the elements might become unstable; even lowly scavenging humanoids like a goblin or kobold might track the PCs and wander in hoping to steal loot the PCs might not have taken yet. Everything in an adventuring location might simply become increasingly alerted to new threats...gaining a bonus to perception checks, and an increased tendency to conceal themselves. Even if the PCs have means of resting safely or choose to do so away from the adventuring location, new encounters can be left on site for the PCs to face when they return or leave their sanctuary. Excessive new combat encounters can be a bit boring if you chose to go that route, but it doesn't take long to get the point across.
* Consider occasional environmental challenges that make resting limited, difficult, or hazardous - inclement weather than makes long rests difficult; cold weather, hot weather, or high (low-oxygen) altitudes that impose progressive levels of exhaustion if the PCs take too long. Slow poisons that build up until the PCs either go elsewhere for a cure or leave the area to recuperate.
* Consider worldwide dynamics - Allies or property might suffer attacks or difficulties while the PCs are off spending 5-minute workdays while adventuring. Even something as simple as horses/servants being attacked outside a dungeon might occur.
* Provide information through standard in-game channels that the adventuring environment has changed so as to reinforce the idea of consequences. Captured enemies might tell tales of reinforcements being brought in. New traps might appear where previously there were none...areas may show signs of recent construction. Maybe in one room the PCs find fresh goblin footprints near an empty leather bag with a few remaining stray coins. The PCs might find raw materials, schematics, or even expended spell components that alert them to new potential threats. Cleared areas might show obvious signs of disturbance.
* If the PCs find ways to bypass some of these challenges, it's not a problem. If the PCs have some spell that allows them to rest safely - they are expending resources by learning and/or keeping the spell prepared. Most "resting-sanctuary" spells won't stop the dungeon environment from changing while the PCs rest. If the PCs find some solution to a particular aspect of a time incentive...they are still being challenged.
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CapnZapp
Legend
The newness is to not roll dice when the players waste time, but to pick up a die for later rolling.
CapnZapp
Legend
Thank you all for your input, especially [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION].
The issue is certainly not easy to resolve.
I guess my question is why everybody goes to such lengths to keep metagame solutions out of the game.
To me, the DM's toolbox is only better and more sophisticated the more tools it contains. Just by adding Angry's proposal does not mean you no longer use story time crunches, for instance. And every tool would remain strictly optional and variant.
The issue is certainly not easy to resolve.
I guess my question is why everybody goes to such lengths to keep metagame solutions out of the game.
To me, the DM's toolbox is only better and more sophisticated the more tools it contains. Just by adding Angry's proposal does not mean you no longer use story time crunches, for instance. And every tool would remain strictly optional and variant.
clearstream
(He, Him)
It'd be kind of fun if there were DM Classes, with a system for levelling up and abilities at each level
Shadowdweller00
Hero
Generally speaking, because metagame mechanics:
1) Break immersion
2) Encourage metagame behavior on the part of the players
3) Tend to distance players from using in-world logic and solutions to solve problems.
4) Don't provide the same richness for purposes of crafting background and information gathering lore. For example - with the Angry DM's dice pool mechanics, the players might know that SOMEthing will happen if they spend a long time searching the ruined temple; but their ability to predict and react to it is impaired. If instead you decide beforehand that the ruined temple lies at the edge of a freezing glacier on a snow-capped peak (causing cold-related unpleasantness if the PCs stay there too long) you can more easily plan out details if the PCs research information about the temple, talk to mountaineers or local monsters about what the area around the temple is like, or cast divinations beforehand.
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