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D&D 5E Spending time [Encounter pacing and Resting restrictions]

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
4) Don't provide the same richness for purposes of crafting background and information gathering lore. For example - with the Angry DM's dice pool mechanics, the players might know that SOMEthing will happen if they spend a long time searching the ruined temple; but their ability to predict and react to it is impaired. If instead you decide beforehand that the ruined temple lies at the edge of a freezing glacier on a snow-capped peak (causing cold-related unpleasantness if the PCs stay there too long) you can more easily plan out details if the PCs research information about the temple, talk to mountaineers or local monsters about what the area around the temple is like, or cast divinations beforehand.

I don't see how one of these has to do with the other though. A DM can absolutely (and oftentimes should) plan out the details of the adventure area so that the PCs can research the info and have it at hand. I agree with your point on that 100%.

But that doesn't affect what the point of the "alarm time dice pool" mechanic is meant to represent.

Let's say (just for example) the party is going into that ruined temple at the edge of a freezing glacier on a snow-capped peak that you mentioned. They go through all their info gathering beforehand, and find out that there are many cold-based monsters within the ruins, and that the only real sounds that travel through the area are high winds.

Now... the party knows this and goes into the ruined temple. They encounter a small group of monsters in the first chamber and one of the PCs casts 'Thunderwave', causing this exceedingly loud peal of thunder that echoes through the temple. At this point the DM rightly points out that the spell was loud enough that its sound has probably resonated quite a ways into it, and its quite possible that other creatures in the temple have heard it. The players acknowledge that but decide to spend 10 minutes searching the monsters and the rest of the room for treasure. The DM says fine, and places a die on the table to let them know they've spent 10 minutes doing that action following the alert they gave off. Two further chambers in, the party comes upon a series of five corridors and spend several minutes checking tracks, checking traps, listening for movement etc. in hopes of figuring out which path to take. The DM says fine, and places another die on the table so that the player can know how much time they've spent thus far doing these activities since their alert went up. Then perhaps a way in the party decides to take a Short Rest, and the DM then tosses a few more dice into this pool.

At some point (however they decides to run this dice pool mechanic), the DM will pick up the dice and roll them in front of everyone to see what occurs (if anything). After that if nothing does, the DM will continue to put dice into the pool and continue to roll said pool after the times the party spends 10+ minutes of time doing stuff. At some point as the pool gets larger, the players would (hopefully) realize something is due to happen soon, and begin taking precautions or just stop wasting time. They don't know what is going to happen or when it is going to happen, but as time passes they know it becomes more likely.

Now, why do it this way (as opposed to say, the DM just rolling on their 'random encounter chart' behind the screen?) In my opinion, it is because it is too easy for players sitting around a table to forget all the stuff their PCs have done, because there's no reminder of it for them at the table. They're talking out of character, they're running to the bathroom, they're having snacks, they look at their phone, they're rolling dice repeatedly. All manner of things that takes them out of the headspace of what being in this silent frozen temple is supposed to be like. If they were actually IN that temple like their PCs are, they'd have constant reminders of what they've done. The memory of the Thunderwave spell would be ringing in their ears for probably several minutes. They would be on more constant alert. They'd hear the creaks and groans of the ice. They would feel the freezing cold such that they might be less inclined to stand around digging through snowpiles looking for gold.

Thus the point of the dice pool. A simple reminder that time is passing after some event has occurred that others in the fiction might have noticed. And the players can see the time passing, can know their actions have had a consequence, and can plan for when that consequence comes a-calling.

It won't be for every table or every DM. Many might find the dice too jarring, many will feel their own narration will suffice, many just don't feel the players need that knowledge or tension. Which is fine! No worries! But for those who might need something like this... having the option available as a mechanic can only be a good thing.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Exactly.

The point is to introduce a cost to spending time (whether you spend the time looting, searching or resting).

And crucially: have that cost be not easily circumventable!

The threat of a wandering monster is trivially negated - just don't rest where the monster can get to you.

The threat of thirst or heat is trivially negated with spells.

Etc

But the threat of a time die coming up a "1" can't be negated or avoided, no matter what spells you use or what tactics you employ.

It makes the game work as intended: each decision to rest carries a cost you can't escape paying.

And crucially, this cost doesn't require anything special from the DM or adventure author. No need to come up with convoluted time restraints or have quest givers be inexplicably short of time.

Rest all you want. Just as long as you're prepared to see the pile of time dice grow in front of you...

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

Kalshane

First Post
I don't get the complaints that this is a "metagame solution" or "breaks immersion."

If the PCs are painstakingly searching every inch of every room, digging through every pile of refuse in case there's treasure in it and taking a rest every time they feel remotely diminished in resources, the players have already "broken immersion" by deciding their characters never get bored doing the same tedious thing for hours on end, have no objections to sticking their hands in every pile of rotten morass they come across and don't think twice about spending 23 hours out of every day in a hostile environment resting.

The whole concept behind this mechanic is to allow the players to have a clear view of the passage of time that they otherwise wouldn't think about (whereas it would be very noticeable to their characters).
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
Well... if this means just plopping down in the cave mouth gets you a d4 while casting Leomund's gets you a d12, then you're accomplishing the opposite of what's intended (just sayin' :))

(I mean - just falling asleep where you stand is after all the kind of unsophisticated rest wandering monsters have been able to impact since Gygax created the game. It's the kinds of rest the monsters, the weather and the water supply can't impact the entire time pool is meant as a solution to.)

OK - but a dice pool is rolled when the players short rest? We agree on that I believe.

Perhaps I'm just suggesting that the DM has the option to "upgrade" the dice for the pool based upon the safety of the resting situation? You're in a cold dungeon so you start a fire to keep yourselves warm. The dungeon was moderate so d6 dice would have been used, but the fire is a monster magnet so the DM upgrades the pool to d4s instead...

(On the dungeon difficulty front I was surprised by Angry's d4, d6, d8 scale. I think I would go for d4, d8, d12 for hard, medium, easy? Am I'm being a nervous ninnie?)
 

CapnZapp

Legend
OK - but a dice pool is rolled when the players short rest? We agree on that I believe.
No, when the players waste time, you add more dice to the pool.

It is later, when the players least want you to, you actually roll the dice and have bad things happen...!

This way, escaping into a Rope Trick, say, is no longer a problem, since the monsters doesn't necessarily appear while the party is inside the pocket dimension... They might well appear just when the players sneak past the big dragon, or some such...





Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
No, when the players waste time, you add more dice to the pool.

It is later, when the players least want you to, you actually roll the dice and have bad things happen...!

This way, escaping into a Rope Trick, say, is no longer a problem, since the monsters doesn't necessarily appear while the party is inside the pocket dimension... They might well appear just when the players sneak past the big dragon, or some such...

So you're disagreeing with Angry then?

Short Rests and the Time Pool

In D&D 5E, a short rest is a period of about one hour during which the party rests and recover hit points. In order for short rests to work in a balanced way without also throwing off the duration mechanic, there are two options. First, you can simple reduce a short rest to a 10-minute duration – which is in line with what 4th Edition did anyway and entirely reasonable. However, the rule I like is this one.

When the party takes a short rest, leave the Time Pool wherever it is. Pick up six dice of the appropriate type and roll them. If any shows a one, the rest is interrupted by a bad thing but can be resumed after dealing with the bad thing. Otherwise, the rest is uninterrupted. Either way, mark off an hour. An hour of time automatically passes after a short rest. Remove one die from the existing Time Pool and then keep playing.

Just trying to understand your version...
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
OK - but a dice pool is rolled when the players short rest? We agree on that I believe.
I feel like it is better rolled later. My suggestion is when a player rolls an unmodified 1 on an attack, ability check or saving throw.

Perhaps I'm just suggesting that the DM has the option to "upgrade" the dice for the pool based upon the safety of the resting situation? You're in a cold dungeon so you start a fire to keep yourselves warm. The dungeon was moderate so d6 dice would have been used, but the fire is a monster magnet so the DM upgrades the pool to d4s instead...

(On the dungeon difficulty front I was surprised by Angry's d4, d6, d8 scale. I think I would go for d4, d8, d12 for hard, medium, easy? Am I'm being a nervous ninnie?)
I feel like scaling the die is unnecessary mechanical clutter. All d6s should work fine. If a dungeon is more difficult, just add more d6.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
[MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION]

Well, as I said, I'm not too keen on discussing particular details of his suggestion.

To me, it's obvious you want to decouple the die rolling from the rest, precisely because that's key to allowing players to rest as generously as the rulebook allows, without their spells trivially removing or defeating the consequences (or forcing me to come up with an ever-ending line of story reasons why "hurry hurry")
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
[MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION]

Well, as I said, I'm not too keen on discussing particular details of his suggestion.

To me, it's obvious you want to decouple the die rolling from the rest, precisely because that's key to allowing players to rest as generously as the rulebook allows, without their spells trivially removing or defeating the consequences (or forcing me to come up with an ever-ending line of story reasons why "hurry hurry")

OK - well Angry has refined his time pool idea in his latest post: http://theangrygm.com/exploration-rules/ but he still has a pool rolled for a short rest (with both advanced and simple options for how to handle that). I understand that you're not wanting to utilize that, which is cool, but I'm leaving it here for any others that might be interested in this topic :)
 

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