D&D 5E SPIRIT GUARDIANS range clarification

[boopadoopvonshmoopadoop]

@jgsugden Absolutely! Here are a few quick examples:

Darkness is a 15 ft radius sphere
Fireball (everyones favorite) 20 ft radius sphere
Fog cloud 20 ft radius sphere

 

[jgsugden]

I see a lot of 15 ft. radius remarks on here and that is currently how I run it in my group. My qualm with this answer is that there are spells in the PHB with a specific reference to radius in the description of range/area. Whereas this says 15 ft self. which ultimately translates to 5 ft on either side of you. But as a 3rd level spell that seems underwhelming even with the 3d8 damage. I'm inclined to agree with the radius ruling especially given the concentration tag. But I wanted to put forth this interpretation as a point of interest.

@jgsugden Absolutely! Here are a few quick examples:

Darkness is a 15 ft radius sphere
Fireball (everyones favorite) 20 ft radius sphere
Fog cloud 20 ft radius sphere

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Darkness extends 15 from the center of the effect to create a 30 foot diameter, 15 foot radius circle. Fireball is 40 foot diameter, 20 foot radius. Fog cloud at first level is 40 foot diameter, 20 foot radius.

Spirit Guardians is listed as having the spirits "flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the duration." in the description and has a Self (15-foot radius) in the spell description. Under either description, it seems clear that the spirit guardians also extend from the caster out to a range of 30 feet, giving it a 30 foot diameter or 15 foot radius.

 

[boopadoopvonshmoopadoop]

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Darkness extends 15 from the center of the effect to create a 30 foot diameter, 15 foot radius circle. Fireball is 40 foot diameter, 20 foot radius. Fog cloud at first level is 40 foot diameter, 20 foot radius.

Spirit Guardians is listed as having the spirits "flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the duration." in the description and has a Self (15-foot radius) in the spell description. Under either description, it seems clear that the spirit guardians also extend from the caster out to a range of 30 feet, giving it a 30 foot diameter or 15 foot radius.

I think I see what you're saying. The only major difference between all of these is that the ones I listed quoting Radius in the description are based on a point in range. Thus have to be described as such. With Spirit guardians, it being a range of self, the caster is the origin of the radius. Cool, thanks for that definitive clarification. I was already ruling the spell in this way (being 15 ft radius) but when I saw the 'self' range listed and no specific use of the word radius in the spell description that opened it up to interpretation for me. I suppose that is sufficiently replaced with 'out to a distance of 15 ft'.

 

[Ancalagon]

. Whereas this says 15 ft self. which ultimately translates to 5 ft on either side of you.

5 feet on either side of you would be a 15 feet diametre, not radius...

 

[Blue]

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Darkness extends 15 from the center of the effect to create a 30 foot diameter, 15 foot radius circle. Fireball is 40 foot diameter, 20 foot radius. Fog cloud at first level is 40 foot diameter, 20 foot radius.

Spirit Guardians is listed as having the spirits "flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the duration." in the description and has a Self (15-foot radius) in the spell description. Under either description, it seems clear that the spirit guardians also extend from the caster out to a range of 30 feet, giving it a 30 foot diameter or 15 foot radius.

I think this is the crux that keeps going back and forth.

Some read "Self (15 feet radius)" to mean the same as "15 foot radius".

Some read "Self (15 foot radius)" to mean anyone within 15 feet of you is affected.

This becomes more pronounced when you start looking at Large or larger casters. For a large caster does it affect those within 15 feet of the caster (which is a 20' radius) or within 10 feet of the caster (which is a 15' radius).

The spell also says "They flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the duration", which with anything bigger than a point-mass seems to me that it's from you, not from a central point. The central point idea does not hold up reading that sentence with Large+ casters. We have other examples where it's distance from you, such as paladin auras.

 

[jgsugden]

I think this is the crux that keeps going back and forth.

Some read "Self (15 feet radius)" to mean the same as "15 foot radius".

Some read "Self (15 foot radius)" to mean anyone within 15 feet of you is affected.

This becomes more pronounced when you start looking at Large or larger casters. For a large caster does it affect those within 15 feet of the caster (which is a 20' radius) or within 10 feet of the caster (which is a 15' radius).

The spell also says "They flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the duration", which with anything bigger than a point-mass seems to me that it's from you, not from a central point. The central point idea does not hold up reading that sentence with Large+ casters. We have other examples where it's distance from you, such as paladin auras.

Yes, technically the spells 'radius' goes out from the caster, so you actually get a 35 foot diameter for spells like spiritual guardians. However, it is not 5 feed around the caster.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

My group is actually currently running into this problem too.

The thing here is that if you are working with grids, then the point of origin should be a grid intersection. This seems true even for "Self" range spells, because if I look at how Thunderwave works, you put the point of origin on the edge of the cell you are standing on.
See Jeremy's tweet here:

So the same should hold true for Spirit Guardians. However, for Spirit Guardians, the area moves with the caster and I feel like the rules are lacking here, because they don't state that the caster can move the point of origin to another side of the cell he is standing on. Also what if he is turning around, does the AoE then circle around with him?

This seems to add WAY too much complexity and I wish Jeremy would just give an official statement on this but I couldn't find one even after searching for it for 3 days...

So I feel like there are only two reasonable options: Either you say for spells that are centered around you and that move with you, the center is always the cell center (which results in a 5x5 grid in this case), or you say all four corners of the cell you are standing on are points of origin and you basically draw four 15-radius circles and abjudicate the AoE range through this (basically a 7x7 grid with just the corners not included).

I feel like the latter makes the spell quite a bit stronger than if you don't play with a grid. Because without a grid, any attacker could just say "I shoot an arrow at him while keeping a 16 feet distance", but with a grid you'd need to move completely on that grid cell to attack, which already makes ongoing AoE effects stronger.

 

[Stormonu]

Just as an aside, how big is the spell area when cast by a Large (10 ft. x 10 ft.) or Huge (15 ft. x 15 ft.) creature? Is it still 7X7 or does it become 8X8 for Large and 9X9 for Huge?

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Just as an aside, how big is the spell area when cast by a Large (10 ft. x 10 ft.) or Huge (15 ft. x 15 ft.) creature? Is it still 7X7 or does it become 8X8 for Large and 9X9 for Huge?

Basically the question shouldn't be how the AoE looks like, but the question should be where you can place the point of origin when the range is "Self".

If you say the point of origin is always the center of where you are standing then for a large creature it would be the grid intersection in the middle of where it stands (which result in a slightly larger AoE than 5x5). For a Huge creature it would again be a cell center so back to an 5x5 AoE.

If you say all corners of the creature's area of control are points of origin, then the AoE gets larger, the larger the creature is.

If you say the caster has to pick an intersection on one of the cells they control, then the AoE size stays about the same but you get more flexible with the position of the AoE the larger you are.

 

[jgsugden]

#1: In the end, the answer is always "ask the DM".

#2: I went back to the PHB and I see this text:

A spell’s description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.

A point is not a whole 5' cube, or the space of a large creature - it is a tiny little location within a 3 dimensional space from which you can measure out. Technically, RAW, you pick a point in the square(s) of the caster and then measure out 15 feet from there. It would seem that the point remains in the same location relative to the caster. Note that if you pick the exact center of the center square that a 5' caster occupies, then which squares are impacted are governed by the optional rules you use for determine effect. If it is just the ones that are more than 50% covered, it is one shape. If it is any square that is covered at all, it is another.

As a DM, I don't like that we're focused on fine measurements is a situation that would be far more dynamic in real life. So, in a situation like this one, I tend to answer the question of, "are they in the radius" with, "They're just near the edge. I'll call them in, but they get advantage on the save."