Spirit Knight, class based on Jedi!

[Asmor]

I was watching Episode III last night, and that got the creative juices flowing, so I made this class based on the Jedi. My aim was to try and create a warrior that could augment his physical abilities to be better at combat, leap higher, run faster, etc. I'm not sure how balanced it is, so I welcome constructive criticism. It does have the drawback of hving all the stats be important; it's a fighter-type class, meaning the physical stuff is important, and I based the "spirit power" around my idea for a caster that uses all 3 mental stats. My intention is that, while the abilities are powerful, you'll almost never actually have a character that can use this class's full potential. There will always be some area you'll need to sacrifice.

http://www.asmor.com/misc/D&D/classes/spiritknight/spiritknight.html

Sorry for not posting it directly on this board, I spent a lot of time working on getting that all laid out nicely.

Quick note: I'm using Javascript to do the table, so if you've got JS turned off for whatever reason you're not gonna get it.

 

[Stalker0]

Your ideas are very interesting, let's take a closer look.

You don't really need 2 tables for amount in reserve and amount spent since the base numbers are the save. One table would be fine.

For spirit sense I wouldn't use spot checks, I would use concentration or sense motive. Spot are for actually seeing something...this is more of a spiritual thang.

The abilities look pretty good overall, but I'm a little worried about being able to double up on battle sense and the attack increase one. Getting 2 AC per 1 point could start becoming very powerful...with an 18 wisdom that's an effective +8 to AC every round.

 

[JimAde]

I like it so far. Very cool.
I agree with Stalker0 that the bonuses to attack and AC will quickly get out of hand. Let's see. The earliest you could get improved spirit attack is 6th level. Let's assume you have a good but not amazing wisdom: 14. So every single round you could have a +4 to all your attacks. You have a +4 BAB for a total of +8 before ability modifiers and feats. If you actually spend your maximum it's +14 before ability modifiers and feats. Even at that pace you can do it every 2 to 3 rounds indefinitely.

One thing you might consider for balance is armor restrictions. This is appropriate flavor-wise and will require the character to use his Battle Sense all the time, making points more scarce for other purposes. So I'd say their powers don't work when wearing medium or heavy armor. Or maybe ANY armor.

 

[Asmor]

I agree that the 2 seperate columns for reserve and max you can spend are a little redundant, since they're the same base, but I think it's best to keep it that way to avoid confusion. There's no such thing as having too much information, and if it makes it a bit more clear to people that they're supposed to receive their modifiers from different ability scores, then I think it's worth it.

The battle sense and spirit attack are the two things that I knew would really make or break this class... The other stuff is fun and flavorful, but those open up a whole lot of min-maxing potential. Spirit attack is the reason I gave the knight a cleric BAB instead of a full fighter BAB. I figured that this is supposed to be a fighting class, so giving it a worse BAB is a bit of a hit. Considering all the bonus feats a fighter gets, I think the ability to consistently have a large bonus to a moderate BAB is reasonably balanced.

I was considering limiting the abilities to light armor anyways, I think I will toss that in there. My idea for this is class is an agile, mobile fighter, and I used rangers as my template while working it out.

Regarding the spirit power names, do you think that they're too drab? I wasn't sure whether to go with simple generic names or try something a bit more flavorful, so I went with generic. I really like the idea of having Jedi in a D&D campaign, so I'm not too keen on inventing a whole new mythology for this class and divorcing it from its roots.

EDIT: I added the light armor restriction to all the powers that I felt required finesse, including spirit attack and battle sense.

 

[JimAde]

Cool. I think the generic names are fine, and if I were to use this class I'd just change them to the appropriate flavor for my game. For example, I could see making this a "nature boy" class and giving them "Hawk Strike" and, for want of a better name, "Cat's Grace" instead of Spirit Attack and Battle Sense.

Another big piece of the Jedi mystique is, of course, the lightsaber. Have you considered doing some kind of bonded weapon a la the Kensai?

 

[scottin]

Very interesting. I like the concept. You may want to tone it down a little. IMO, it seems VERY overpowered at high levels. Maybe slow the spirit point progression some.

Also, my initial reaction is to liken this with a monk. Maybe the powers should get stronger as level increases. Instead of letting players choose a power, assign them to levels as appropriate for the power, but let them get stronger as the char gains levels. This is how it would work for a jedi. After all, Luke can't move the x-wing fighter at all, but Yoda, in Episode 2, can throw huge chunks of metal around. It seems to me the power should be weak at lower levels, and grow as levels increase. With the class the way it is now, one would only need a couple of levels of this to drastically improve any other class. Seems like it should take more dedication to the path to become a truly powerful character.

Also may want to consider good (light side)/evil (dark side) power. Not unprecedented, as cleric powers are like this.

just a thought. I really like the idea tho, I may steal this when it gets fleshed out a little more.
sgc

 

[Asmor]

Another big piece of the Jedi mystique is, of course, the lightsaber. Have you considered doing some kind of bonded weapon a la the Kensai?

I have, of course, thought about that. I don't really know what I could do, though without overpowering the class even further.

Hmm... Maybe I could make it a hindrance! You need to choose a weapon, and can only use your Spirit Attack with that weapon? I dunno... I'd kinda want to invent a new weapon for the class, doesn't seem right to just give them a plain ol' sword and call it their Special Spirit Juju Weapon.

In any case, I am interested in doing something with a weapon, as soon as I can think of something to do.

Very interesting. I like the concept. You may want to tone it down a little. IMO, it seems VERY overpowered at high levels. Maybe slow the spirit point progression some.

If anything, I'd think it'd be more overpowered at the lower levels, since your ability scores would be such a comparitively large bonus (i.e. a character with 18 carisma could spend 5 points in a round at level 1).

Also, my initial reaction is to liken this with a monk. Maybe the powers should get stronger as level increases. Instead of letting players choose a power, assign them to levels as appropriate for the power, but let them get stronger as the char gains levels. This is how it would work for a jedi. After all, Luke can't move the x-wing fighter at all, but Yoda, in Episode 2, can throw huge chunks of metal around. It seems to me the power should be weak at lower levels, and grow as levels increase. With the class the way it is now, one would only need a couple of levels of this to drastically improve any other class. Seems like it should take more dedication to the path to become a truly powerful character.

That's already built in to the system, by limiting how much they can spend per turn. Going back to the level 1, 18 charisma Spirit Knight, you could only spend 5 points on, say, telekinesis (yeah, I know, you can't get TK til level 2. It's an example!), meaning at most you could create a 12 strength TK effect, flinging something that weighs less than 43 lbs or holding something that weighs less than 130 lbs, not even enough to stop a typical warrior in armor. A level 20, on the other hand, with the same 18 charisma could spend 15 SP to get a 22 strength TK effect, or with improved TK could get 36 strength.

I'm not so sure about the movies, but at least in the video games (like Jedi Knight), you weren't just good at every power, you got to choose which powers you could take and how good you were at them.

Also may want to consider good (light side)/evil (dark side) power. Not unprecedented, as cleric powers are like this.

Yeah, it had of course occurred to me, but I think that's something I'd rather make a whole new, albeit similar, class for.

 

[LostSoul]

Looks interesting. Some questions/suggestions to follow.

Spirit Sense: At the DM's discretion, the knight may be required to make will save (DC as appropriate based on proximity and sheer magnitude of the occurence. 15 is a good base DC) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to however much the check was failed by. If the save is failed by 10 or more, the knight is knocked unconscious.

I'd set up a list of things that can happen (and the triggering occurances) and give each one a CR. Base them on traps.

Additionally, spirit knights are aware of others that can channel spirit power (typicall other spirit knights) who are in close proximity.

I'd make it a DC 15 Spot check to notice, unless the other guy is trying to hide, in which case you have an opposed roll. Spot vs. Concentration.

I'd also give a strict range on when it works.

You should also use one of those tables (Detect Evil's, maybe) for determining how powerful the other guy is.

Spirit Influence: You may spend 1 SP to increase your diplomacy skill against any character by 1 for this round. If you spend more SP than you have ranks in bluff, the target may make a will save (DC 10+spirit knight level+wisdom modifier). Regardless of how many SP you spend, the target may only attempt one will save per round. If the target makes the will save, this power will not work on him for 24 hours.

Why is Bluff brought into the question if you are using Diplomacy?

Why the Will save? Are you targetting the other character, or buffing yourself?

How about this ability works just like Hypnotism (without the HD cap)? The Save DC could be 10 + Cha Mod + SP spent.

Telekinesis:

Why not have this work just like the spell (with a 1 round duration)? Your caster level could be the number of SP you spend with the spell. That might be too much, I dunno.

Interesting work.

Do you have any plans to work in the whole "Light Side/Dark Side" thing in here?

 

[Enamel_32]

Just a random sort of suggestion, but perhaps as an immediate action spirit power, the spirit knight could deflect arrows (like the feat) using his weapon? Also, you might want to check out how the soul knife class deals with its special weapons... There's a small selection, but the weapons get better as one levels up.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Okay, here's how you do lightsabers, and hopefully keep them balanced.

Set them up like longswords, except dealing 1d8+1 damage.. It's the only weapon (maybe clubs, quarterstaff) that they begin proficiency with, and they're the only ones that know how to make them. You can put more bonuses in them, or you can add special properties, but other than the standard 1d8+1 saber, a Spirit Knight could only wield one that he has made himself. So to make a strong magic lightsaber, one would have to spend the time and effort to make it. Hey, the only reason that Luke didn't put Dancing on his was because it would have taken too long to create. But he did put keen on his, since it's only a +1 bonus, and it helped him get that crit on Vader that cut off his hand.