• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Spirit Shaman contradictory abilities?

I think I've come across a little problem, regarding two of the Spirit Shaman's class abilities (Complete Divine)

The Ghost Warrior (6th level) ability confers Ghost Touch to the Spirit Shaman's held weapon.

A ghost touch weapon can be used by an incorporeal creature to strike a corporeal one, as it can be used by a corporeal creature to strike an incorporeal one.

The Spirit form ability (9th level) specifically states that the Spirit Shaman, in spirit form (incorporeal) cannot make physical attacks against corporeal creatures.

Shouldn't the Ghost Warrior ability give the Spirit Shaman the possibility of striking corporeal creatures with her weapon when in Spirit form?

Thanks in advance.

AR
 

log in or register to remove this ad

ForceUser

Explorer
Per the RAW, a ghost wielding a ghost touch weapon can strike corporeal creatures. I would rule that the spirit shaman with ghost strike can as well.
 

xen_xheng

First Post
If a ghost picks up a ghost touch weapon (and he can, as it affects the ethereal), he can hurt normal beings because the weapon is in the material plane.

If a ghost turns ethereal carrying his ghost touch sword to the ethereal, its usefulness is questionable, as force spells/weapons do not affect the material plane from the ethereal plane (try casting magic missile to anyone in the material plane from the ethereal, it doesn't work).

When the spirit shaman turns incorporeal (ethereal) carrying his sword, he is unable to affect the material plane. If he drops his sword before going ethereal (and it doesn't lose it's ghost touch ability), he may be able to grab it from the ethereal and hit with it (it would seem lika a possesed blade moving by itself if you haven't see invisibility to see the shaman in ethereal form)
 

ForceUser

Explorer
Good point. A ghost must manifest to be able to attack with a ghost touch weapon. If spirit shamans can't manifest while ethereal, then they are not on the material plane but coterminous to it, and thus can't attack a target on the material plane even with a ghost touch weapon.
 

Artoomis

First Post
Ghost Touch: This armor or shield seems almost translucent. Both its enhancement bonus and its armor bonus count against the attacks of incorporeal creatures. It can be picked up, moved, and worn by incorporeal creatures at any time. Incorporeal creatures gain the armor or shield’s enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects.

Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Taken together, I'd say that the Ghost Warrior ability indeed does give the Spirit Shaman the possibility of striking corporeal creatures with her weapon when in Spirit form.
It looks to me like a Ghost Touch weapon is both corporeal and incorporeal at the same time and can be used by corporeal or incorporeal creatures.

This seems relatively straightforward to me.
 


Saeviomagy

Adventurer
xen_xheng said:
If a ghost picks up a ghost touch weapon (and he can, as it affects the ethereal), he can hurt normal beings because the weapon is in the material plane.

If a ghost turns ethereal carrying his ghost touch sword to the ethereal, its usefulness is questionable, as force spells/weapons do not affect the material plane from the ethereal plane (try casting magic missile to anyone in the material plane from the ethereal, it doesn't work).

When the spirit shaman turns incorporeal (ethereal) carrying his sword, he is unable to affect the material plane. If he drops his sword before going ethereal (and it doesn't lose it's ghost touch ability), he may be able to grab it from the ethereal and hit with it (it would seem lika a possesed blade moving by itself if you haven't see invisibility to see the shaman in ethereal form)


Ethereal != incorporeal.
 

Artoomis

First Post
Saeviomagy said:
Ethereal != incorporeal.

Well, now, I have to ask EXACTLY what is the spirit form of the Ghost Warrior (I do not own Complete Divine)

For reference:

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

Etherealness
Phase spiders and certain other creatures can exist on the Ethereal Plane. While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane.

Ethereal creatures are invisible, inaudible, insubstantial, and scentless to creatures on the Material Plane. Even most magical attacks have no effect on them. See invisibility and true seeing reveal ethereal creatures.

An ethereal creature can see and hear into the Material Plane in a 60-foot radius, though material objects still block sight and sound. (An ethereal creature can’t see through a material wall, for instance.) An ethereal creature inside an object on the Material Plane cannot see. Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly. An ethereal creature can’t affect the Material Plane, not even magically. An ethereal creature, however, interacts with other ethereal creatures and objects the way material creatures interact with material creatures and objects.

Even if a creature on the Material Plane can see an ethereal creature the ethereal creature is on another plane. Only force effects can affect the ethereal creatures. If, on the other hand, both creatures are ethereal, they can affect each other normally.

A force effect originating on the Material Plane extends onto the Ethereal Plane, so that a wall of force blocks an ethereal creature, and a magic missile can strike one (provided the spellcaster can see the ethereal target). Gaze effects and abjurations also extend from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane. None of these effects extend from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane.

Ethereal creatures move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground, and material objects don’t block them (though they can’t see while their eyes are within solid material).

Ghosts have a power called manifestation that allows them to appear on the Material Plane as incorporeal creatures. Still, they are on the Ethereal Plane, and another ethereal creature can interact normally with a manifesting ghost. Ethereal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as air. Ethereal creatures do not fall or take falling damage.
 
Last edited:



Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top